ADVICE TO NICE GUYS

[maddog]

G’day NNW,

On self-esteem. Can’t help you there I’m afraid.

Misogamy and misandry are equivalents.

Bushwalkers tend to be well behaved. Some are harmless misfits. Evidence to suggest that dangerous weirdos lurk in our Parks? None.

Really not much to fear from others when out on a bushwalk. For men or women. It would be a shame if people started to imagine otherwise.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[doogs]

It's just so refreshing to have a discussion on inappropriate behaviour (initially towards women) attract inappropriate comments (about women). So rare. And the way all the blokes jumped in over it . . . well, thanks guys.

I tried to highlight this point. My views were moderated as they were deemed unfriendly. I think that if I had added to the misogynistic comments that dominate this thread, then those words would have stood. Maybe I just missed the point of the thread and it is a board for demonstrating inappropriate conduct towards women, and how not to behave. If that's the case I would like to congratulate the gents involved on a job well done. Bravo.

[icefest]

G’day NNW,

On self-esteem. Can’t help you there I’m afraid.

Misogamy and misandry are equivalents.

Bushwalkers tend to be well behaved. Some are harmless misfits. Evidence to suggest that dangerous weirdos lurk in our Parks? None.

Really not much to fear from others when out on a bushwalk. For men or women. It would be a shame if people started to imagine otherwise.

Cheers,

Maddog.

Good to see neither an apology or any understanding.

And once more you've turned the topic to "but it happens to men too"


How much damn evidence do you want?
One in five Australian women aged 15 years and over has experienced sexual assault. That's frightening. It's a real problem and it's people that say there isn't that make it all the more worse.
https://www.humanrights.gov.au/educatio ... r-equality

The biggest problem for me here is that you've just had someone tell you they feel threatened and you respond by telling them to be shamed that they feel like that. Fail at empathy. I feel sorry for you.


Misogamy and misandry might be somewhat equivalent, but only one of them results in thousands of discriminated Australians. In fact domestic and family violence is the leading preventable cause of death, disability and illness in women aged 15 to 44 years. That'greater than smoking or obesity!

[Chezza]

Well said, icefest. Some guys just can't seem to put this in perspective. For a woman the potential for physical and sexual violence at the hands of a man is a very real possibility, and the reverse is quite rare.

Misogamy and misandry might be somewhat equivalent, but only one of them results in thousands of discriminated Australians. In fact domestic and family violence is the leading preventable cause of death, disability and illness in women aged 15 to 44 years. That'greater than smoking or obesity!

Did you mean leading cause of death worldwide, or in Australia? If so, I'd be interested in the statistics. I know it's one of the leading causes (and it's exact place in the ranking doesn't change the nature of this discussion one bit) but certainly not aware of it being THE leading cause.

[icefest]

In Australia.
Page 4
https://www.vichealth.vic.gov.au/media- ... f-violence

[slparker]

DV is the leading contributor to disease burden, not the leading cause of death.

[north-north-west]

He said "death, disability and illness".

[Chezza]

In Australia.
Page 4
https://www.vichealth.vic.gov.au/media- ... f-violence

Thanks. I'm embarrassed to say I didn't know the real magnitude of the issue until just now.

A summary of that study can be found here:

https://www.vichealth.vic.gov.au/~/medi ... rsion.ashx

[walkerchris77]

Lol. When does a look become a stare. Dont look or acknowledge someone then your rude. Look at someone and your a pervert. Hold a door open for a female and get abused. Cant win. I think there's more important thing to worry about.

[DarrenM]

More important than a woman giving an insight into her fears of being assaulted? Trivialising it is exactly the problem.

Ever walked into a dangerous pub and felt threatened the whole time you were there? Knowing that if you said the wrong thing or simply looked at the wrong person you could be followed out and bashed for no reason? It might happen on a very rare occasion for most blokes but when a woman says she has felt threatened then I'd say playing it down shows just how ignorant you are.

Like the skinny kid at school, they have a built in awareness of what safe is in the playground compared to the popular football types. I learnt so much from my wife about the reason women feel threatened and why some blokes have no clue about the way a seemingly innocent stare can be threatening. She was assaulted in a toilet block and hadn't said a word. Her mistake was simply making eye contact.

It is no joke. Walking down a busy street or bushwalking, if someone says they feel threatened....learn something from it.

[mickb]

My advice to ''Nice guys'' is don't stare, especially at western women, you might end up married . I don't stare at women in Australia because I don't want to risks a 60% divorce rate, 90% chance of losing courtcase and custody of children and 70% assets. If you do the math when you marry, technically 15% of your current earnings are already going to the next guy she will divorce, a person neither of you have met yet.

I worked the 2nd and 3rd world for many years and the most efficient form of staring I saw was probably at ex soviet block/iron curtain ladies. Much more traditional, fitter, (they have to walk everywhere) and dress up to go out, anyone who has been there know the difference between their ladies and our( 'sheilas'' in bike pants and sweaters and thongs and tattoos) They are also a lot stronger(don't muck them around or you will wake up with important parts missing) Lastly they are not worried about 'scary bush paths'', ''crowded pubs'', ''loud footy games'' and other ''1st world horrors'' since they have been through political upheaval, warfare, living without electricity, living on $10000 p/a and being around really dangerous men. Just small stuff

[mickb]

Lol. When does a look become a stare. Dont look or acknowledge someone then your rude. Look at someone and your a pervert. Hold a door open for a female and get abused. Cant win. I think there's more important thing to worry about.

Yep 1st world problems. Everyone was freaking out in the western world over the muslim problem up a few months ago, so they have thrown us a gender war, a new bone to chew on for a while. It will be campaign against boiled beetroot linked to cancer next and everyone posting that they new someone who even sold beetroot tsk tsk

[mickb]

Good to see neither an apology or any understanding.

And once more you've turned the topic to "but it happens to men too"


How much damn evidence do you want?
One in five Australian women aged 15 years and over has experienced sexual assault. That's frightening. It's a real problem and it's people that say there isn't that make it all the more worse.
https://www.humanrights.gov.au/educatio ... r-equality

The biggest problem for me here is that you've just had someone tell you they feel threatened and you respond by telling them to be shamed that they feel like that. Fail at empathy. I feel sorry for you.


Misogamy and misandry might be somewhat equivalent, but only one of them results in thousands of discriminated Australians. In fact domestic and family violence is the leading preventable cause of death, disability and illness in women aged 15 to 44 years. That'greater than smoking or obesity!

Men commit more violent crime because we are more violent creatures. I am not sure why women have such a hard time getting their heads around this and why men feel the need to defend it. We are loaded with several times the testosterone, just like men who have more test are more likely to be jailbirds. Its basic science. We are meant to go into battle, load up on hormones to hunt to kill or get torn apart by a pack of hyaenas and but buy just enough time for cave-mum to get the cave-kids up a tree. You are not going to be able to legislate against this, or change it.

The point is civilized society controls the worst of its impulses well enough for people to live freely and grow by monitoring itself. Up until 25 years ago we all did this. Parents smacked bad kids, teachers caned kids, mum and dad would boot the neighbours kids bum who knocked over their bin, a bloke would knock another bloke out just for swearing in front of a lady in my dads day.

It was like having 6 million amateur police on duty, in every neighbourhood, every hour of the day, and night.

What happened then is the government decided we couldn't maintain our own disclipline and banned it. We lost the ability to rectify one another, our kids, the trash talker at the pub, and these problems, once monitored by an entire nation, were added to the workload of a measly few thousand state police who have no hope of being everywhere at once.

So now we have a generally disrespectful society who behaves any way it wishes, from staring at women, to taking drugs and driving too fast, to raping kids and government in its infinite laziness decides to dump it at the feet of ''evil males''

And their classic angle is to re-write history and say "hey it was just as bad as before' . Old fashioned blokes oppressed women, preists molested kids, Rolf harris was a predator etc and sure I am not going to deny it.

But nor am I going to let them write off a period of history those of us who remember it know, had a lot less fear in it.

My mum and my grandma were never afraid to walk the same streets they live in now. They lived in unlocked houses back then, left their cars unlocked, let their kids( me and my sister) walk to a cinema 3km away at night, primary school age, like the rest of the town did. They took late night train rides in the city without fear. '(Id be crazy to let my kids do any of that these days) There were no syringes on the ground to worry about, no pill labs in every damn suburb, no whacko religious shootings, no gang drivebys in suburbs( there were gangs and bad guys yes, but the difference is they stuck to their own terriroties). because if any of these things reared their heads there would often as not be a big tough guy (or mum)with sleeves rolled up ready to do violence against it.

[Xplora]

Mickb - it seems like you are saying 'back in my day this would not have happened'. If you are talking anything past the last 25 years then I can tell you all of this was going on. Maybe not as pronounced or reported but it was going on non the less. Violence toward women (committed by men) has been there for an eternity but in the late 70's and into the 80's legislation began to change which enabled wives to give evidence against their husbands in a domestic violence matter. Before then the attitudes of men prevented women from speaking out. Even the Police of the era would not do anything if a man decided his wife needed a bit of a slapping to keep her in line. Protection laws changed giving rise to the AVO and the ability to kick a man out of his house. Men do have different instincts and they do have testosterone but using your own reasoning, men should have evolved to be the protector of women and children and not the punisher. It is a complex issue but certainly not one to do with hormones alone. Attitudes of men toward women is also transferred in the home. These attitudes can be changed with education over time but it is difficult to change a violent person once they have taken to violence. Domestic violence is a cycle and only breaks with an intervention once it has taken hold. From my experience, once it has started in the house then it will continue until the woman leaves (and does not go back) or the man is stopped by other means. He is often sorry for the abuse afterward and she takes the apology and stays only to be beaten again. Your idea is that back in the day violence was not a problem because it was dealt with by someone else using violence. Violence begets violence and that is why there is the trend away from violent punishment. I can remember over 40 years ago being bashed up on a Sydney train. I can remember the gang violence and murder at the local skating rink. Yes it is worse now but we have more people in the cities. I would not walk around the area I grew up in even now let alone send a child out. It is full of ISIS recruiters. I can remember the summary justice administered by others and I also remember it being directed to the wrong person. This topic has strayed considerably from the OP's original intention but it has been worthwhile. I do not put the blame solely at the feet of men but the idea that violence against women was OK (the excuse is when they deserve it of course) is something perpetuated by men through the centuries and still common in many cultures. It is not OK for any person at any time to use their position, strength, size etc etc to control or abuse another male or female against their will.

[north-north-west]

Oh Geez, the old 'they have it worse somewhere else' card. Never seen that one played before . . .
And then the 'wouldn't have happened in my day' line. Well, guess what, sport - it did. We just didn't hear about it so much because people didn't want to know, and refused to get involved. Mainly because of attitudes like yours. 'Traditional' attitudes that said married women belonged to their husbands and said husbands could do whatever they wanted to them.

Y'know, mickb, some of us have a greater opinion of men. We think you're capable of controlling yourselves, of behaving decently. That you're capable of learning to be reasonable, fair-minded, non-violent people. Amazing how it's the anti-feminist brigade who insist otherwise. Maybe, if your opinion is correct, it's time we instituted curfews and movement restrictions on men. At least it would make the world safer for those of us who aren't violent.

[Giddy_up]

It's time for men to behave like men, open doors, lend a hand, protect all women all the time, support and nurture children.

My father taught me these three simples rules to define what being a man is, stand behind people who need a push, stand beside people who need a hand and stand in front of people who need your protection.


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[icefest]

Men commit more violent crime because we are more violent creatures. I am not sure why women have such a hard time getting their heads around this and why men feel the need to defend it. We are loaded with several times the testosterone, just like men who have more test are more likely to be jailbirds. Its basic science. nope. Correlation does not equal causation.We are meant to go into battle, load up on hormones to hunt to kill or get torn apart by a pack of hyaenas and but buy just enough time for cave-mum to get the cave-kids up a tree. You are not going to be able to legislate against this, or change it. you say you can't change the violence of men but in the next paragraph you outline a way that you can change it. You say legislation cannot change the violence of men but then you blame what you think is an increase in violence on a change in legislation. You can't have your cake and eat it.

The point is civilized society controls the worst of its impulses well enough for people to live freely and grow by monitoring itself. Up until 25 years ago we all did this. Parents smacked bad kids, teachers caned kids, mum and dad would boot the neighbours kids bum who knocked over their bin, a bloke would knock another bloke out just for swearing in front of a lady in my dads day.

It was like having 6 million amateur police on duty, in every neighbourhood, every hour of the day, and night.

What happened then is the government decided we couldn't maintain our own disclipline and banned it. We lost the ability to rectify one another, our kids, the trash talker at the pub, and these problems, once monitored by an entire nation, were added to the workload of a measly few thousand state police who have no hope of being everywhere at once. #nannystate #we want more guns # gun control doesn't work. Jokes aside, you can't honestly advocate that the solution to violence is more violence, right?

So now we have a generally disrespectful society who behaves any way it wishes, from staring at women, to taking drugs and driving too fast, to raping kids and government in its infinite laziness decides to dump it at the feet of ''evil males''

And their classic angle is to re-write history and say "hey it was just as bad as before' . Old fashioned blokes oppressed women, preists molested kids, Rolf harris was a predator etc and sure I am not going to deny it.

But nor am I going to let them write off a period of history those of us who remember it know, had a lot less fear in it.

My mum and my grandma were never afraid to walk the same streets they live in now. They lived in unlocked houses back then, left their cars unlocked, let their kids( me and my sister) walk to a cinema 3km away at night, primary school age, like the rest of the town did. They took late night train rides in the city without fear. '(Id be crazy to let my kids do any of that these days) There were no syringes on the ground to worry about, no pill labs in every damn suburb, no whacko religious shootings, no gang drivebys in suburbs( there were gangs and bad guys yes, but the difference is they stuck to their own terriroties). because if any of these things reared their heads there would often as not be a big tough guy (or mum)with sleeves rolled up ready to do violence against it. what you are saying is that your own anecdotal evidence is more relevant than the statistics that have been collected on the matter?

Tell me, do you also disbelieve in climate change and think that gay people should not get married?

[hairypanic]

There are 2000 year old accounts of people saying 'back in my day'

Fair to say this has gone a long way off point
Just don't be a dick to other people

I've been surprised how friendly most women out hiking despite the fact i'm a hairy sweaty mess, probably figure they could easily outrun me

[DarrenM]

I was concerned that Mickb was somebody I knew. Clearly not the same Mick because I doubt we'd be mates.

The anti feminist angle shows just how far you've missed the point of the topic. Testosterone isn't anywhere near a good enough reason to be a dick in a first or third world country.

[puredingo]

Geeze, I don't know....first we give them the vote, then we let them out of the lady's lounge to roam the pub and now you can't even look in their general direction on a bushwalk without a mass bra burning erupting. The worlds gone to pot!!

[johnk1]

Well said Giddy_up. I completely agree with both of your statements.

I have been this way since I was a child from being taught by my father.

My 4 year old son is being taught exactly the same values.

I also dislike the bad language in front of woman and children and will still to this day pull people up on this.

I wouldn't go as far as using violence in the situation but will definitely say something when it happens.

[ribuck]

I wouldn't go as far as using violence in the situation...

Of course not. That would be the problem, not the solution.

[DanShell]

Geez this thread escalated quickly.

I just want to say I love women but I do what I want, when I want.........providing my wife lets me

[north-north-west]

It's time for men to behave like men, open doors, lend a hand, protect all women all the time, support and nurture children.

At the risk of coming across as ungrateful . . .
I can open my own doors thank you very much. And when I need help, I ask for it. How about just treating everyone - regardless of sex, gender, age, etc etc etc - the same, without assuming that they require assistance or protection just because of who they are, rather than the circumstances in which they are?
If someone stumbles, you offer a hand, no matter who they (or you) are. If someone is obviously struggling, you offer assistance - again, regardless of who either of you are. But to insist on doing things for another adult just because of irrelevant physical characteristics is patronising. You're giving that adult the status of a child.

Thanks but no thanks. I've been fighting all my life to simply be recognised as a person, without any reference to those irrelevancies. If I get to the door first, I'll open it and hold it for you too. (And swear at you under my breath if you don't have the decency to utter a simple 'Thank you'.)

[South_Aussie_Hiker]

The testosterone argument is so pathetic to me (as a justification for violence or anything else for that matter) - and I'm a man.

You're essentially likening us to animals - ie male body and hormones are made to hunt and protect.

Which, to a certain extent, I would agree with in the animal context.

However, the defining feature of humans is the cerebral cortex. That's what makes us different. That's what makes us different to a male lion with testosterone, or a male gorilla with testosterone.

Blaming or even being suggestive towards the testosterone argument takes the focus away from what it really is - a complete lack of judgement and empathy towards women.

It's a complete failure of the cerebral cortex, not to be confused with success of the testosterone.

[neilmny]

................ If I get to the door first, I'll open it and hold it for you too. (And swear at you under my breath if you don't have the decency to utter a simple 'Thank you'.)

That's the way I was brought up (agree on the swearing under breath bit too). Isn't that what they call being courteous.

[Giddy_up]

It's time for men to behave like men, open doors, lend a hand, protect all women all the time, support and nurture children.

At the risk of coming across as ungrateful . . .
I can open my own doors thank you very much. And when I need help, I ask for it. How about just treating everyone - regardless of sex, gender, age, etc etc etc - the same, without assuming that they require assistance or protection just because of who they are, rather than the circumstances in which they are?
If someone stumbles, you offer a hand, no matter who they (or you) are. If someone is obviously struggling, you offer assistance - again, regardless of who either of you are. But to insist on doing things for another adult just because of irrelevant physical characteristics is patronising. You're giving that adult the status of a child.

Thanks but no thanks. I've been fighting all my life to simply be recognised as a person, without any reference to those irrelevancies. If I get to the door first, I'll open it and hold it for you too. (And swear at you under my breath if you don't have the decency to utter a simple 'Thank you'.)

I think I only said to protect all women, as for the rest of my post its all non-specific on gender and to be fair I really don't care if you want your door opened for you or you want an hand or protection. I'm going to do those things regardless, it's who I am and to a large extent it's who I believe most men are!!!!


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[Lophophaps]

How about just treating everyone - regardless of sex, gender, age, etc etc etc - the same, without assuming that they require assistance or protection just because of who they are, rather than the circumstances in which they are?

If someone stumbles, you offer a hand, no matter who they (or you) are. If someone is obviously struggling, you offer assistance - again, regardless of who either of you are. But to insist on doing things for another adult just because of irrelevant physical characteristics is patronising. You're giving that adult the status of a child.

Thanks but no thanks. I've been fighting all my life to simply be recognised as a person, without any reference to those irrelevancies. If I get to the door first, I'll open it and hold it for you too. (And swear at you under my breath if you don't have the decency to utter a simple 'Thank you'.)

+ lots. It annoys me when I offer small kindnesses and they are not acknowledged. A few months ago I was on my bicycle in thick slow traffic. A driver was waiting for both lanes to be clear so he could turn right. Long wait. I stopped in my west-bound lane and in the east-bound lane a truck stopped. The punter drove into the gap, big smile to the truckie and me. It was enough. There was no extra time of substance for anyone, and it made the punter's day a bit easier. OLT hut, summer, after dark, probably 8 pm. Family arrives after a long cold wet walk, kids about 12 years-of-age borderline hypothermia-exhaustion. Their fingers were too numb to remove boots and clothing, so we did it for them. Our hot water was made into soup for them. Never knew their names, where they were from; doesn't matter.

I don't ask about a person's age, gender, religion, sexual orientation, qualifications or shoe size before offering assistance, or opening a door. It's just courtesy, like letting a faster walker past on a narrow track. This sort of thing should be part of what we are in the bush. I've helped any number of people, and needed rescuing a few times, with three very close calls. It might be me next time.

Absent this caring for each other then we are truly lost.

[icefest]

It's time for men to behave like men, open doors, lend a hand, protect all women all the time, support and nurture children.

At the risk of coming across as ungrateful . . .
I can open my own doors thank you very much. And when I need help, I ask for it. How about just treating everyone - regardless of sex, gender, age, etc etc etc - the same, without assuming that they require assistance or protection just because of who they are, rather than the circumstances in which they are?
If someone stumbles, you offer a hand, no matter who they (or you) are. If someone is obviously struggling, you offer assistance - again, regardless of who either of you are. But to insist on doing things for another adult just because of irrelevant physical characteristics is patronising. You're giving that adult the status of a child.

Thanks but no thanks. I've been fighting all my life to simply be recognised as a person, without any reference to those irrelevancies. If I get to the door first, I'll open it and hold it for you too. (And swear at you under my breath if you don't have the decency to utter a simple 'Thank you'.)

Yes yes yes.

My test is usually, replace woman (or skin color or race) with something like "dressed like a smurf".
You'd have to be a strange person to only hold open doors for people dressed like a smurf.

[Stroller]

I should probably stay right out of this conversation but after reading three posts of MickBs in a row, I just wanted to say that while i agree with one or two things he says, i find him generally quite a scary sort of guy. I wouldn't like to cross paths with you in the bush, even though it sounds like you wouldn't be one of those guys i'd need to worry about. You are just scary anyway.

Otherwise a pretty interesting thread which i didn't quite get to the end of reading.