MacPac Resolution, MD Stratus, Mont Tempest & durability

[richie]

Hi, I'm new here, been scouring posts for information before i decide on a new jacket. I'm just wondering if anyone would have any insight to share about these jackets. I narrowed the selection down to these three (and could be talked into the Pallin Exposure) after a marathon effort in the city today, I just couldn't pull the trigger on any of them.

Other than being waterproof my requirements are design (good hood/neck, stormflaps, etc) and durability (resistant to harsh off track scrub of the Grampians and Tassie with a reasonable amount of care), followed by breathability.

My question is primarily about the MacPac Jacket. My main concern is the durability of the lighter fabric on the torso as well as the issues brought up in norts' review of it. What have others found? How does the fabric hold up? And is the eVent more susceptible to dirt and clogging from either the inside (bodily oils, etc) or outside? Is it likely to be performing like a plastic bag after the first of several weeks, until I can get it to a washing machine?

Also, any opinions on Hydronaute compared to the other membranes would be great! Some I've talked to have suggested it performs better in our generally warmer and (sometimes) wetter conditions.

Finally, I'm starting to think twice about paying a whole load of cash for high breathability that might be elusive unless conditions are just right. Are there any nice jackets around with good hood/stormflaps/cuffs/pockets, durability, less breathabilty, and demanding less cash?

Cheers,
Rich

[Ent]

The MD Stratus is the Performance version of Gore-tex and this is about as tough as material you can get with a good traditional design. I use a now de-funked Vista from Paddy Pallin in the Professional version of Gore-tex and love it. Hydronaut has a good reputation for toughness as well but not as breathable according to my friend that has both, but it has its fans. I have a down jacket with this membrame but only wear it for camp wear so can not make much comment on the breathability of the fabric. For eVent the jury is out on toughness.

Basically if you are worried in the shop over toughness then it only get worst when scrambling down a tricky section of track. And if it tears get ready for pleanty of comments that you used it in inapproriate conditions Not much fun choosing between ripping a jacket to pieces and falling trying to avoid doing this.

As for the various claims on breathing material, it has more factors than I can figure out, along with rather dubious claims from vested interests, i.e. people that sell the stuff. Gore-tex for me works well in cold conditions. For hot humid rain conditions then other fabric (eVent) might be better but for me getting wet is not much an issue but getting wet and cold is. I have eVent mittens and they are ok but not the wonder material that some claim.

Basically if you are off track or rugged conditions walker in cold places then go with the MD unless the Mont is cheaper by a reasonable margin. If you like being on the bleeding edge then give eVent a go. The MD Stratus are often on special so avoid full price if you can.

Cheers Brett

[Nuts]

hmmm... now Brett... Ive set you straight before, wouldnt bother but for the benefit of our new member (welcome Rich)...
eVent has NOTHING to do with toughness, neither does goretex! They are substrata laminates within (and under) Any face material a manufacturer cares to use, whether that be paper thin or canvas tough!

Coming back to particular jackets, Ive had the stratus and tried Mont hydronaught, both well made. The hydronaught definitely was tough (not sure if its a laminate, heavy shell material). Did seem to let some heat transfer but not much (similar to gore).

I currently use event..... Montane (Superfly), shorter jacket but they use a thick shell layer and reinforced waist shoulders seat.
It was relatively cheap, very well made. It also definitely 'breaths' a little better than any of the others.

[nickL]

hey nuts

i have had my eye on a superfly for ages but never found them cheap - what did you pay and from where did you purchase

cheers

[richie]

Thanks for the responses guys. It's the face fabric on the torso of the MacPac jacket that I'm concerned about, though in actuality it may well be fine. It's not so much abrasion damage I'm thinking of, but pinholing from plants like Hakea and others. Interestingly the face fabric seems near identical to that of my grandmother's (!) 2003ish GoreTex Mountain Designs Strato, so I guess they changed to a heavier fabric at some point.

In terms of the eVent membrane, I'm hearing around the place that it needs to be washed more frequently to unclog it and keep it breathing, so I sort of wonder how long it maintains its performance between washes.

Otherwise the design of the resolution is great, bonus that it hasn't got the 'hood in the collar' feature too.

[Nuts]

nick i bought that off ebay but iv'e also bought from these guys (they seem ok):

http://www.ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk/ ... nt&x=0&y=0

[Ent]

hmmm... now Brett... Ive set you straight before, wouldnt bother but for the benefit of our new member (welcome Rich)...
eVent has NOTHING to do with toughness, neither does goretex! They are substrata laminates within (and under) Any face material a manufacturer cares to use, whether that be paper thin or canvas tough!

Hi Nuts

Yes you are correct Nuts that the membrane can be paper thin, in fact I said that more than once myself, so you need not use your straight ruler However, the fact is all the eVent outer layers that I have spotted in jackets are a lot lighter grade materials that Gore-tex Performance and even the lighter Professional shell. Your Montane jacket looks a heavy grade but did not get much a chance to look at it. Sure, if eVent bonded its membrane to an ultra tough shell then it would be equally as tough, but it does not, so a moot point especially on the jacket mentioned.

eVent jackets I have seen are more a comparison with Gore-tex Pac-lite material, which incidentally, on the Pack-lite jacket I have is NOT recommended for bush walking (that is what the label said so it is not my opinion but the manufacturer) but as the name says it is intended to pack light and be compact for travel wear. Having experienced the joys of a light weight jacket destructing with a simple slip and the wonderful comments that I must be prone to fall over a lot, etc, something I did not manage on our last walk Nuts I am wary of fragile outer shells as there are plenty here to condemn you for using such a jacket inappropriately, like in the bush. But heck I am not looking at selling walking gear so full speed ahead and do not let me stand in the way of capitalism

Just on an aside check out the new S2S gaiters now made with eVent and compare them to the older ones made of Gore-tex. That is the heaviest grade of eVent outerlayer I have seen but still appears lighter than the older Gore-tex one. I will be interested in reports from people that have used both, as yes, before the ruler brigade come out like the school master from the “Wall”, weight or thickness are not the only factors determining toughness.

Cheers Brett

[Ent]

PS

On washing, for many years people told you not to do this as it destroted the DWR coating. Actually, all manufacturers advise a regular washing providing the correct washing agent is used preferably with a front loader followed by a dryer. The best guide is what appears on the jacket's label. I have and it works well for me as at then end of the day the manufacturer should know best.

Cheers Brett

[Nuts]

No Worries now that you've explained what you meant it is probably better understood, your still muddling the terms as the 'membrane' is not designed to be a 'tough' layer. B+
Do you know what type and denier (nylon?) face fabric is used in the jackets mentioned?
These are probably more important considerations for Rich, in looking for a 'tough' jacket than discussing brands ...
Trade offs will be weight and steaminess... For just tough many of the the old oiled japaras used bombproof outer shells.
Personally ive always been looking for a reason to not use goretex, they held up a ridiculous premium for 20+years and still appear to try control the establishment of equal or better products at better value.

[blacksheep]

Macpac specify eVent fabrics are 70d and 160d for alpine and hiking garments. We also use N66 (fat filament) yarns on our fabrics.
This is the denier the GTex shell fabric I specced when I designed for MDs. They were not N66 yarn however. So you are not correct with your assumptions Brett.
Gore-tex may feel studier because they use add a layer of PU in there laminate. This PU is internal, and not in any way adding to the abrasion resistance of the outer.

[tasadam]

It's not so much abrasion damage I'm thinking of, but pinholing from plants like Hakea and others.

My understanding is that it won't matter what outer shell you use, you will end up with thousands of tiny holes in your shell and it will eventually leak.

Can someone recommend to me an outer shell jacket that does not suffer from pinholing due to the likes of Scoparia?

If not, what do you do to keep dry when walking due to your outer shell failing to be waterproof due to eventual pinholing?

Bear in mind pinholing is only due to contact with such plands as Scoparia and as I understand, about 30 other species in Tasmania. So the shell will only be as good as you look after it, that is, keep it out of contact with such plants. Or am I wrong here - can someone guide me better on the pinholing issue?

[Ent]

Personally ive always been looking for a reason to not use goretex, they hed up a ridiculous premium for 20+years and still appear to try control the establishment of equal or better products at better value.

Now that is one thing I can agree with.

Trouble is the major competitor to Gore-tex is hell bent on preserving that premium for themselves by claiming even better performance but are strangely silent on developing independent standards to justify their claims. I myself deliberately avoided Gore-tex and brought Wilderness Wear coats using Chamelon fabric instead. Good design with pockets where you needed them and tough as nails but sadly not as breathable. I kick myself now that I did not buy the original One Planet classical styled jacket instead, but I was annoyed by the universial high pricing of Gore-tex and the snobbery that went with it. Nowadays that 3/4 length style has disappeared a cm a year off the length each year. Gore-tex warranty appears to be honoured after many years of use so maybe that is the benefit of an initial massive price but honestly if you look at say Kathmandu you pay double the price for Gore-tex compared NGX to for what appear to be jackets costing the same to produce. Much the same with manufacturers that use eVent instead.

At the end of the day the market that wants a 3/4 length coat (me) made from ultra tough materials is just not big enough. The MD Stratus is about as close as modern jackets gets but even then it is too short to be considered capable of covering the shorts. As mentioned, Paddy Pallin have abandon the Vista, but not the 3/4 length style which is available in another so called breathable material. Probably the massive cost of the fabric made such a jacket unaffordable by the great unwashed. I am aware that at least one MD shop is lobbying hard for the Stratus to be made longer and simplified to be cheaper with their likely market being fisher folk. As yet the message has not got through. We can only hope it does.

Cheers

PS, Blacksheep, as mentioned by the original poster the newer Stratus appears to use a heavier material then the older 2003 model. Not having that jacket I can not make that comparision so rely on their view. Does that suggest that MD might have gone more hardcore when you left as Mountain Design designer to your current position? Their clothing was a no go for me when local production stopped and shifted offshore along with the Australian jobs along with quality and fit. I notice that MD stuff is now actually starting to come back to longer sleeves including a better body cut with quality improving and price becoming more competitive. Looks like they have moved on since you left and gone back to the future Now I hope they will revisit the ventilation design of their tents such as condensation trap Kaon.

PS, PS, On pin holing I suppose the original oilskin is the only solution as any plant spikey enough will hole a membrame unless protected by an outer layer that is so impervious that it stops been breathable. A canvas material is suspose to swell and close holes. Yeap, back to the future again

PS, PS, PS

Here is a good link that explains a lot of terms with the right degree of Aussie skeptism.

http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Rainwear.htm

[alliecat]

Can someone recommend to me an outer shell jacket that does not suffer from pinholing due to the likes of Scoparia?

If not, what do you do to keep dry when walking due to your outer shell failing to be waterproof due to eventual pinholing?

The only products I'm aware of that avoid this problem are those that don't use a membrane at all, and so pinholes make no difference to their performance as waterproofs.

Probably the best example is Paramo. You can also get custom-made jackets and pants made using Paramo's fabrics from Cioch. A sort-of-competitor for Paramo (uses very similar materials and is run by a former Paramo employee) is Furtech, though they are aimed at probably colder and harsher conditions than Tas.

Other similar kinds of clothing are the buffalo system, and other "pile/pertex" approaches. Montane make a pile/pertex "extreme"jacketand smock. Again, these might be aimed at harsher conditions than Tas.

Photohiker on this forum used Paramo in Scotland during the TGO challenge - he might be able to say more about it.

The main issue for all these products is that they might be too warm for Tas conditions - wet, but not all that cold. In the middle of winter they'd be fine, but for summer I think that many people would find all these non-membrane products too hot. Mind you, the same people might well find any membrane product too hot in the same conditions. And Paramo have tried hard to make their jackets lighter and less warm over the last few years so their lightest jackets could well be just the ticket for Tas.

That ought to give you enough browsing to keep you busy for a while

Cheers,
Alliecat

[blacksheep]

Brett, you try so hard to be disrespectful to me, my business and my past I am amazed.
Unfortunately, when I appear here I am aware of not only being Campbell, but I am Campbell from Macpac...that kinda gets in the way of sharing my thoughts of what I think of you being rude about me , my past, my company at every opportunity. I don't know why you do it, but please be assured I don't appreciate it.

[richie]

I'll just say I have nothing against MacPac nor eVent, quite the opposite. The MacPac Jacket was among the best designs I tried on, it's really only the light face fabric that has me wondering and I'm tempted to try it out anyway.

[geoskid]

Unfortunately, when I appear here I am aware of not only being Campbell, but I am Campbell from Macpac.

Yes, and the patience you show is a credit to you, - would'nt go unnoticed by others either.

[Macca81]

Unfortunately, when I appear here I am aware of not only being Campbell, but I am Campbell from Macpac.

Yes, and the patience you show is a credit to you, - would'nt go unnoticed by others either.

indeed

[Ent]

Brett, you try so hard to be disrespectful to me, my business and my past I am amazed.
Unfortunately, when I appear here I am aware of not only being Campbell, but I am Campbell from Macpac...that kinda gets in the way of sharing my thoughts of what I think of you being rude about me , my past, my company at every opportunity. I don't know why you do it, but please be assured I don't appreciate it.

No Campbell it is not disrespectful, merely an observations that fit and quality changed at Mountain Design when production shifted off shore many years back and now appears to be reverting back. I am a very happy owner of the Australian made gear and it is still serving me well after twelve or more years. Is that not a good thing? Also things have changed with models and styles as competitors duke it out in the market place. Please feel free to promote your products when and how you wish though your repeated criticism of Goretex needs to be seen in the light that your company does not sell it, instead sells a competitor’s product. Older members of this site might be aware of this but newer members may not be.

My main comment was more directed that jacket strength is a critical aspect that might get overlooked as falls and tumbles happen. If the same strength can be achieved with lighter weight or lower cost then great. That is what the free market is about, or at least I hope it is. The link I posted is worthwhile as it contains views that I both agree and disagree with but does explain why my Pack-lite Goretex coat came with a clear warning it was not bushwalking wear. It appears that Gore-tex, according to Roger Caffin, is not prepare to push fabric below certain strength as bushwalking material. This in my opinion is a good thing as Goretex has and does stand behind their warranty with minimal fuss. Something that is a big point with me but maybe not so with others.

Cheers Brett

[blacksheep]

paclite is 2 layer- the delicatePTFE laminate is exposed, rather than being sandwiched behind a protective layer of tricot on the inner. It abrades and is damaged from rubbing against other materials and abrasive materials. It is therefore not good for any pack carrying activity, and Gore tell people this is the limitation of a 2 layer light weight fabric. I'm sure you must know this?
I have not critisiced Gore-tex ever. Without it better things could not have evloved, and they still make the 2nd or 3rd best waterproof breathable fabrics available.

and yes, you are .

[Nuts]

Huh, there you go, stand corrected, gore do make a fabric where the membrane matters to toughness.. I thought paclite was missing the inner, liner 'layer'...
That aside, even paclite would probably do most. I had a paclite jacket with reinforced shoulders, probably not what richie is after though...

[nakedape]

Or, you could just accept that many (most, all) of these materials will fail eventually - usually just after the warranty runs out. Take for example the Macpac Event jacket that only works when ultra clean - my Mont hydronaught that does everything but keep out the rain and my partners several goretex jackets that perform miserably. The moral of the story - do not over capitalize on your jacket as you will be replacing it soon enough Note to manufacturers - stop selling gimmicks and return to making quality products.

nakedape

[Ent]

paclite is 2 layer- the delicatePTFE laminate is exposed, rather than being sandwiched behind a protective layer of tricot on the inner. It abrades and is damaged from rubbing against other materials and abrasive materials. It is therefore not good for any pack carrying activity, and Gore tell people this is the limitation of a 2 layer light weight fabric.

Interesting information that explains Gore's position a bit better than Roger Caffin's article and the waring label on my jacket but as Nuts says many people are happy with pack-lite but the reinforced sholders sounds like a good idea, which mine does not have. Me think I will keep my pack-lite jacket for travel/town wear and continue to use the Professional version for bushwalking and grit and grunt with the extra weight.

I do agree with Nakeape's view that many of us, me especially big time, over capitalise on gear. Often I am rewarded while other times not so much. Shopping the specials is my approach as the current pricing policy of significant half year (at least) specials means you pay too much for most of the year.

My approach is slowly coming around to the view that unless something is specifically design for Australian conditions or tastes, the best option it to buy direct from the USA. My personal proviso is if I see it in a local shop I will buy it there as I figure that they took the punt and that is only fair. I would avoid direct from China or similar places as you are taking a risk of counterfeit products. I suspose though if the price is cheap enough you can consider it the same as buying a no name brand here.

The trick with clothing is to understand the sizing charts but most USA sites have all the necessary sizing charts online. I have long arms and took the punt as mentioned on a down jacket after looking at brands that were known too short in the sleeve or the right length and comparing this to the jacket's specifications that I was buying and this worked out well with a 800 loft light weight down jacket with hood for under $140.00 AUD delivered. Unless you see something in a shop you like I would suggest that the cheapest option is buying from the USA mail order companies. Very tempted by the Montane eVent jacket Nuts recently brought (have you posted a link yet or have I missed it) so keeping a watchful eye on the USA sites for their end of winter clearance specials. However, seriously what I do not need is yet another jacket, boots, thermal wear, etc or failling that a full time job guiding for the next twenty years to wear my stockpile out

Worth while checking out the links posted on this thread as a few left field options. A fellow walker found after wearing standard safety wet weather grear his old Kathmandu NGX was not so bad after all. Sure an eVent or Gore-tex product might be better but for him the price of them is rather over the top. I shreaded a expensive rain jacket in a simple slip. If I had paid $30.00 I would probably buy it again but not the $199 or was it the $299 I paid.

Cheers Brett

[blacksheep]

FYI, kathmandu NGX = Not Gore=teX (it is not any 1 fabric)

[Ent]

FYI, kathmandu NGX = Not Gore=teX (it is not any 1 fabric)

Ok I will bite. How do they get away with this as is this not a "brand indicatiing a peformance standard"? Could much the same for MD Repel fabric range as that appears on a wide range of garments? So you could have reasonable to down right shocking performance depending on what version you buy? Could explain mixed views by different posters with some being happy and others not so much.

Cheers Brett

[photohiker]

Photohiker on this forum used Paramo in Scotland during the TGO challenge - he might be able to say more about it.

Yes I did, and I just have updated the Rain Jackets thread here

Sorry for the delay

[Jellybean]

Unfortunately, when I appear here I am aware of not only being Campbell, but I am Campbell from Macpac.

Yes, and the patience you show is a credit to you, - would'nt go unnoticed by others either.

indeed

Agreed.

Back from 4 weeks in Canada to find same old, same old from one member on the forum. As frustrating, irritating and unnecessary as it might be Cam, the continual slurs say alot more about that forum member than they do about you or Macpac.

Cheers,

JB