Layering and protection for Victorian alps in November

[Mutley]

I have been bush walking for a couple of years now and have done wilsons prom, the gow Apollo bay and the overland track. All hikes have been done in mild weather and these hikes wouldn't be regarded as difficult. The clothing used seemed up to the task but I'm now thinking of taking on some tougher trips. My question is, do I need to reconsider my clothing and the layering ?

For a trip into the Victorian alps in november, I will be taking or wearing the following: Synthetic thermals, synthetic pants and long sleeve shirt, a fairly standard and worn in fleece and a katmandu goretex copy jacket. Also a wool beanie and thermal gloves, with wool socks.

My question is do I need to upgrade to a high quality fleece, get a better outer jacket or consider more layers ? I am concerned I won't be warm enough if things turn nasty.

Really like the forum and find the combined knowledge invaluable.

Cheers..

[Moondog55]

Short reply
It's the mountains expect the worst, it may be wet and soggy so look to making sure your boots and gaiters are up to the task.

It never hurts to have the extra layer, I'd take a decent fleece fiberfill or down vest, pile or fleece pants and a balaclava or Finnish cowl in addition to the hat and make sure you have overpants.
Insulate the legs ( if you want the cheapest possible effective insulation for your legs look at the USA Army trouser liners)

[Franco]

Mutley
Fleece does get thinner and therefore loses warmth after a few years of use, some more than others. So you may want to consider getting a new one.
my layers are wool singlet, shirt, wool jumper (angora or possum down) and light rain/wind jacket (gloves and hat) if expecting down to about 5c, lower I change to singlet, wool mid layer and a light down jacket as well as a beefier "rain jacket"
A couple of items that I find very useful are a Buff (use that on my neck or wrist sometime as a head cover at night) and plastic bread bags.
At camp when I have wet boots I wash my feet, put sock liners on (my night Coolmax socks) then the plastic bag, over the bag I put my wet socks on and my boots.
.So I have dry feet and start "drying" my socks that way.
Forgot...
In the alps I always have rain pants and often gaiters too.
Oh dear
What I think I take and what I do is not always the same...
I am sorting out the gear for the next trip , so I could have put a better comment in the first place if I had taken a good look at what I have prepared so far..
On top of the above I almost always have long wool underpants (camp/night layer) and often have waterproof mittens (light shell)

Franco

Andrew
my cat is doing some softness testing.

[ninjapuppet]

If you want to get fancy, try one of these new cutting-edge technology Klymit vests that you fill up with argon gas. That argon gas has great insulating properties that should be able to keep you warm and you can adjust its warmth to your needs.

http://www.klymit.com/index.php/products/kinetic-vests/khameleon.html


But if you're like me and think its abit too high-tec really, then your layers sound fine for November. Ive also got a Kathmandu Goretex jacket and the goretex is real goretex, so if yours say goretex too, then it probally is real and not a copy. Just stand under a shower to test it out. Should keep you dry unless its really old and suffered too much abrasion hey?

But when I hit the snow, and especially above the tree-line, we were taught on our mountaineering course to ALWAYS ALWAYS carry a bothy bag. It makes more sense than an emergency bivy and you can use it for lunch too.I got one of the 4-man Terra Nova superlite bothies from the UK which i think is abit of a ripoff http://www.kitout.com.au/shop/shop212.html. You can get away with the cheaper Vango stormshelter series which are half the price, just as durable and pack nearly the same size.

+1 on the buff. Balaclava would be optional I guess, but I wouldnt bother in November..

[Moondog55]

I never used too either, until I got caught in one of those sudden "Why is it windy and snowing ?" week-ends about 20 years ago, if you don't h
already have a bivvy bag those Scottish bothie bags make really good sense, although I carry a Megamid which of course does almost everything

[andrewbish]

I plan to do my first winter walk in the Bogong area in the next couple of months.

Thanks to advice from Moondog, NP and others on this forum and elsewhere, I have acquired a few items beyond my 3-season kit:
- snowshoes
- polyprop gloves
- polyprop thermal top and pants
- puffy down vest
- over mitts
- beanie
- snow shovel (Snowclaw)
- rubber (dishwashing) gloves (for snow work)
- electronic thermometer/altimeter (would be nice to know exactly how cold it is in the tent!)

Still to come (or under consideration)
- snow pegs
- Buff

One thing I am not sure about is whether my bamboo staff will be sufficient or even necessary in snow and would like some comments on this.

Andrew

[andrewbish]

@Franco - is that moggy in the photo also part of your winter kit?

[Moondog55]

I'm trying to head up that way myself soon, forget the bamboo staff; if you are using snowshoes get a second hand pair of ski poles, preferably with powder baskets.
Andrew I'm happy to loan you some snow pegs if you don't want to buy or make your own, I'd be adding some pile mittens or heavy woolen gloves if you are using overmittens.
What stove are you going to use? In winter and the snow I find a plywood base is handy to stop the stove melting its way down to ground level ( this assumes deep snow) I'm going to be making one myself very soon I can't find my old one.

[andrewbish]

Hi Moondog

I use an MSR butane stove. Plywood base sounds like a good idea.

I will probably have a go at making the snow pegs - more fun! What do you think of this design? I could use PVC as he has done here or some bamboo I have lying around the place.

Regards
Andrew

[Moondog55]

Yes if you used high strength aluminium tubing, I prefer coolroom coving myself but for our conditions even angle works OK.
Aluminium tubing on it's own may work but I haven't tried it
Nylon bags work well too and are lighter to carry
Small piece of aluminium flashing 150 X 150mm for the heat resistance glue to plywood the same size ( 3 /5mm ply is fine if hardwood ) and the closed cell foam underneath for the insulation, takes about 10 to 15 minutes to assemble, bigger is better up to 200 X 250mm.

[andrewbish]

Thanks, Moondog.

How do you use the nylon bags?

[Moondog55]

It's a stuff sac with heavy duty webbing as a tie point dig a hole fill stuff sac with snow; bury said stuff sac leaving the webbing exposed tie to the webbing, often impossible to get out//dig out if they freeze in Just another sort of deadman anchor. plywood also makes good deadman anchors

[gbedford]

I wouldn't get too worried about it. Seems like you have the necessary clothing. How about a pair of shorts? A light pair of overpants is the only other item I would carry. Hardly ever use them but occaisonally they have been useful.

Gordon

[Moondog55]

Yeah shorts are great over long johns, I often wear that combination when skiing, I always have the storm pants in the pack along with the rest of the storm gear no matter what the day looks like at the start.
I would never tell people it is OK to wear shorts up high unless I also warn them about the risk of sunburn due to increased UV.
Speaking of which Andrew if you do not already own them you really do need "SP" Specific Purpose sunglasses and goggles for the snow

[andrewbish]

@moondog Snaffled a second hand pair of Leki ski poles on eBay last night for $26

[Moondog55]

@Andrew sounds about the right price; check the length and wrap duct tape down the shaft below the hand grip for another 200mm as an alternative grip. handy sometimes.
i f you are using snowshoes you will not be traversing hillsides; with snowshoes it is almost always up and down the fall line

[north-north-west]

Snow in the Victorian Alps in November? Won't be a lot around unless there are some unusual late spring dumps. Almost all of it's gone by mid October.

[Moondog55]

Snow in the Victorian Alps in November? Won't be a lot around unless there are some unusual late spring dumps. Almost all of it's gone by mid October.

While this is true, you do have to make some provision for worst case scenarios.
I have been in snow storms in January, I was on a trip across the Razorback one long week-end when we had the temperature drop from mid 20s to very low single digits and got snow; hail sleet and then more snow on the walk across the ridge; and because I "Knew" it never snowed in January I had ignored club advice and the mandatory packing list and I'd left the extra jumper and the black japara storm parka in the bus hadn't I!

So while it seldom happens to quote the old head of the weather bureau : "Unusual weather is normal"

[north-north-west]

Yeah, I know it 'can' do that at any time of the year, but you don't carry snowshoes etc for a November walk in the Vic Alps unless it's snowing heavily when you set out.

A late December or early January dump is fairly common. But it's usually gone again within a few days.

[Moondog55]

I think Andrew and I have crossed purposes with the OP
@ Andrewbish
Andrew do you want to open a new discussion pertinent to your trip in July??