New Thermarest Neoair AllSeason looks promising

[Earthling]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Vv_dJ0MVFU

540grams at 6' long with an R4.9 I couldnt say no, will be interesting to see how it handles these frosts we are having as of late.

[north-north-west]

Brilliant. I should have held off on the Neo Air for 9 months and I wouldn't have to justify buying a third mat . . .

So, it's almost as warm as the Prolite 4, and a similar weight to the basic Neo Air. Does it get any better?

[Earthling]

Brilliant. I should have held off on the Neo Air for 9 months and I wouldn't have to justify buying a third mat . . .

So, it's almost as warm as the Prolite 4, and a similar weight to the basic Neo Air. Does it get any better?

Always sell the old one here or ebayit
It does get better...Its warmer than the prolite 4 as the prolite is R3.8/9 whilst the Allseason R4.9

[north-north-west]

And will cost as much as the two old ones combined.

I actually took both the Prolite and the NeoAir on the long weekend 'cause I knew I'd be camping on snow. Warm and comfy, but the weight almost killed me. The AllSeason is perfect.

[Lindsay]

For 128 grams more than the neo-air this looks like a real goer. Cost is about $US150. Can I A, find a supplier who ships to Aust and B, justify a new mattress?

[Greenie]

How much does it weigh? I would be interesting compared to the Exped SynMat which also has a R value of 4.9.

[north-north-west]

540g for 6' long version, which is not much more than the standard NeoAir. Probably a bit less for a shorter one.

[Greenie]

I was hoping you weren't going to say that. As only got my SynMat and it weighs in at 770 grams. The AllSeason looks like it packs up a bit smaller also

[north-north-west]

Campsaver have them starting at $US140 for the small. You know you can justify that.

http://www.campsaver.com/thermarest-neoair-all-season

[sthughes]

Looks like the new best mat you can buy.

Nice MSR "gear shed" in the back ground BTW.

[Nuts]

If only it were that simple. Campsaver dont have them, they are out of stock cause they were never 'in stock'. Late July was the news but then will they sell one to you?
If the warmth rating was the deal maker perhaps consider that there has been some conjecture whether it will in fact be accurately rated. Another thing to keep in mind is that the extra weight would cover a closed cell foam 'under' pad for a regular neoair (ie, just as tough, perhaps more puncture 'proof' and leaving some warmth if the mat is punctured).

I'd wait a while. There is a review and attempt to actually test sleeping mat ratings in the works that may shed some light.

Another to consider is the Exped UL Synmat that has been out for a while, the stats are good too (same story as above though)

[Earthling]

Yes always conjecture over a new item. We can put a man in space, we have space blankets for emergency warmth, yet people still dont understand that reflective foil in a matress reflects heat back to you.....theres always non-believers. I for one have found Thermarest a quality company who dont do the snake oil sales, so I trust them enough to fork out the coin.
Worse comes to worse and US wont ship to you, there are Aussie Suppliers with the item in stock.

[South_Aussie_Hiker]

Wow, if the stats are right (and I wouldn't doubt they are knowing Thermarest), then this is by far the best mat money can buy.

Going to be hard to get to Australia, most American online retailers won't send Thermarest internationally.

Now, how to get this one past the wife...

[Nuts]

Yes always conjecture over a new item. We can put a man in space, we have space blankets for emergency warmth, yet people still dont understand that reflective foil in a matress reflects heat back to you.....theres always non-believers. I for one have found Thermarest a quality company who dont do the snake oil sales, so I trust them enough to fork out the coin.
Worse comes to worse and US wont ship to you, there are Aussie Suppliers with the item in stock.

Earthling, ive had a chance to work with the dozen neoair mats wev'e been using for the last two years. 'Believer' or not, this isn't related to my points, filling the airspace with anything will slow down air movement (and increase warmth (though Thermarest did try to say that the foil would also reflect Cold back down, in their first advertising ) Personally, if it is (really) cold, I feel some sort of 'positive' (ie closed cell foam) insulation is safer, it may also be warmer and 'tougher' for the same weight.

Buying isnt such an issue, they are available now from OS, just not from Campsaver.

[Earthling]

Yes always conjecture over a new item. We can put a man in space, we have space blankets for emergency warmth, yet people still dont understand that reflective foil in a matress reflects heat back to you.....theres always non-believers. I for one have found Thermarest a quality company who dont do the snake oil sales, so I trust them enough to fork out the coin.
Worse comes to worse and US wont ship to you, there are Aussie Suppliers with the item in stock.

Earthling, ive had a chance to work with the dozen neoair mats wev'e been using for the last two years. 'Believer' or not, this isn't related to my points, filling the airspace with anything will slow down air movement (and increase warmth (though Thermarest did try to say that the foil would also reflect Cold back down, in their first advertising ) Personally, if it is (really) cold, I feel some sort of 'positive' (ie closed cell foam) insulation is safer, it may also be warmer and 'tougher' for the same weight.

Buying isnt such an issue, they are available now from OS, just not from Campsaver.

You were questioning whether the Allseason was as warm as thermarest claim, hence my referal to the relective nature of space blankets and foil which the Allseason has three layers of this...thus it would be related to your points yes? Foil reflects heat and cold, so an item that reflects your heat towards you and cold down would have to be good science.

Ive often used the old foam pad as an extra layer for added warmth when a bit more is needed...even went old school a year or so ago and just used a foam pad for a matress for a weeks hike in summer...wasnt tooo bad in sandy sites but some nights I was sore in the morning...interesting experiment.

I wonder what the r value is of closed cell foam?
http://shop.bivysack.com/product.sc?productId=80
Above guy says his 1/2" Foam is R2 at 213grams, so a Neoair at R2.5 and 410grams (6' Version) together would give R4.5 (if they combine like that) and 623grams.
Allseason being R4.9 at 540grams, so a higher Rvalue of 0.5 and lighter by 83grams.
So the Allseason is lighter and better Rvalue...not sure on toughness.
Safety is always important and if a large tear or slash occurs that is not repairable in the field the Allseason will give a R1.5 deflated if the info from BPL is correct. Add a pack and all my rain gear and cold clothing I feel a rather crude, though reasonable emergency matress could be made.

I see where your coming from though as it is only 83grams....but 83grams here and another 83grams there and so on and before we know it I will need a tougher heavier pack! I guess (as per the usual) going down the light weight road it comes down to experience, knowledge, problem solving capabilities and adaptability when deciding on whether a particular piece of equipment is right for yourself.

[Orion]

Foil reflects heat and cold, so an item that reflects your heat towards you and cold down would have to be good science.

Earthling, it's a bit more complicated than that. Depending on how it's used an IR reflective layer can be useful or useless. In the case of this new thermarest it's hard to say how much difference it makes versus the many air cells in the pad. We consumers are left only to hope that Cascade Designs cares more for the science than the marketing. I wouldn't hold my breath waiting for them to quantify those details. For someone buying one it's enough to know what the R value is.

[alliecat]

Foil reflects heat and cold, so an item that reflects your heat towards you and cold down would have to be good science.

Um, no, foil doesn't "reflect cold". It really, really doesn't. That is definitely not "good science".

A solid foil layer (by solid I mean a continuous surface, no holes) has two effects on insulation. It reduces heat loss by convection (warm air moving and being replaced by colder air) and by blocking infra-red radiation. Under most circumstances, the heat lost by a human body via IR radiation is much smaller than that lost by convection and conduction. A foil sheet will only have a significant benefit once you've already dealt with the bulk of the convective and conductive heat losses. Adding a layer of foil to an already insulated mat will have a little bit of a benefit, but it won't be huge in absolute terms.

If a manufacturer has found a way fo adding a foil layer to an anlready insulated mat without adding significant weight, it would be a useful thing to do, but it's not ever going to make a massive diffeence.

Cheers,
Alliecat

[Nuts]

Hi Earthling, no, others question what the rating will be. I was just giving my thoughts on using these type of mats (in general).

I wasnt comparing these with foam mats, I was saying that i (personally) would use a thin foam mat As Well.. this is the way we have used the current neo air, it makes them warmer and 'tougher'. I would also use a foam pad with the new model regardless (for the 'piece of mind' that the mat is well protected, probably not so much the warmth).

Given that, and as an aside, the current neo (with a foam undermat) is still lighter than the new one. In this setup its warm well into the minuses and the times ive used them when its really cold ive taken a second thin foamy to go on top of the neo.

As I said, my point wasn't that the new mat wouldn't live up to claims, ive had good experiences with Thermarest just that (in use) the overall difference might not be that great. Certainly not enough to swap one for the other.

I'd agree that most people will just rely on the R value given (an some faith). With an independent set of testing (as has been proposed on BPL) due in the near future it may be worth waiting to see what comes of it? We may find that a $50 mat from one of the less 'well known' manufacturers is just as warm (and light)?

(In my understanding, Cold, being 'the absence of heat', it is not a 'entity' in itself'... it cannot be 'reflected')

[South_Aussie_Hiker]

If anyone is looking into a group buy from the states, I'd probably be in.

[Earthling]

Foil reflects heat and cold, so an item that reflects your heat towards you and cold down would have to be good science.

Um, no, foil doesn't "reflect cold". It really, really doesn't. That is definitely not "good science".

A solid foil layer (by solid I mean a continuous surface, no holes) has two effects on insulation. It reduces heat loss by convection (warm air moving and being replaced by colder air) and by blocking infra-red radiation. Under most circumstances, the heat lost by a human body via IR radiation is much smaller than that lost by convection and conduction. A foil sheet will only have a significant benefit once you've already dealt with the bulk of the convective and conductive heat losses. Adding a layer of foil to an already insulated mat will have a little bit of a benefit, but it won't be huge in absolute terms.

If a manufacturer has found a way fo adding a foil layer to an anlready insulated mat without adding significant weight, it would be a useful thing to do, but it's not ever going to make a massive diffeence.

Cheers,
Alliecat

Oops...my bad
I should have listened more in science all those years ago... Good to see someone did.

[alliecat]

No worries. There is a lot of mis-information out there about insulation and how it works, so it's very easy to get confused. Sadly, the people who write the marking guff usually have no idea about how the product they are trying to sell actually works. As a result you get some "interesting" (and often totally wrong) ideas pushed out via advertising and, sometimes, product reviews that do little more than echo the marketing blurb.

Anyway, it's nice to have my physics degree come in useful for once!

Cheers,
Alliecat

[photohiker]

Foil reflects heat and cold, so an item that reflects your heat towards you and cold down would have to be good science.

Um, no, foil doesn't "reflect cold". It really, really doesn't. That is definitely not "good science".

A solid foil layer (by solid I mean a continuous surface, no holes) has two effects on insulation. It reduces heat loss by convection (warm air moving and being replaced by colder air) and by blocking infra-red radiation.

There are two surfaces involved though: The cold ground below, and the warm body above the sleeping mat?

A polished metal foil works two ways - as a reflector, and as a low emittance barrier to thermal transfer. So it should both reduce convective losses to the cold ground and help retain heat above by these qualities. By the sound of it the new mat has more air pockets inside designed to enhance these qualities.

I don't know the ins and outs of the new thermarest apart from what was said in the linked video, but I'm sure that adding more air pockets and reflective foil inside a sleeping mat has got to be a good thing. Like Nuts, I've used a thin foam pad with my Neo-air and its pretty good, better than anything else I've slept on in the cold but I haven't tried a downmat yet.

[Earthling]

Well my allseason arrived today.
It weighs in at 550grams, so thats only 10 grams more than list weight...thats good.
It does make a crinkly noise when moving around on it, however I dont think its toooo loud.
The warmth is incredible!
Just laying or even putting your hand on it you can actually feel the warmth radiating back to you...just like he said in the vids!
Blows me away. Would be too warm I feel for warm summer nights...you would cook...like being on a water bed with the heater setting too high...uncomfortably hot.
We are having high single figures at night again here after -6.1c frosts last week...will wait for a colder night before I give it a test...the frosts will come back I am sure.
So far though this mat looks very promising.

[north-north-west]

Where did you buy yours, Earthling?

[Earthling]

Where did you buy yours, Earthling?

Backcountry.com

[corvus]

I am no Scientist but does all this mean that a Space Blanket (shared weight 289g for two) Silver side up under or on top of our Prolite 4 mats will increase the" R " rating or whatever it is called
corvus

[alliecat]

I am no Scientist but does all this mean that a Space Blanket (shared weight 289g for two) Silver side up under or on top of our Prolite 4 mats will increase the" R " rating or whatever it is called
corvus

The R value is just a measure of how quickly heat will be lost through the mat. (Higher R means slower heat loss. For ground around about freezing, you need a total R of around 5 I think for most people to be comfortable. I always make sure I have at least R5 below me in winter and at least R4 in summer.)

If you stack bits of insulation on top of each other, you can effectively just add up their R values to get the total R value. In practice, most of the heat lost to the ground when we are lying on it is through direct conduction and insulation slows down the rate of conduction. Mats with air spaces in them also have some convective (circulating air) losses, and if you are not sealed off against draughts they will cause significant convective losses too.

The other way we lose heat is through IR radiation. A space blanket will reduce a lot of the radiative losses. But, until you've got the convective and conductive losses under control, the radiative losses are a very small portion of the total heat loss. I can't recall what the R value of a single IR reflective layer is exactly, but it's pretty small (almost certainly less than R0.5 and the figure R0.14 comes to mind but I can't find the source of that right now). Because we can sense IR on our skin though, when we feel the reflected IR, it "feels" warmer even though the actual reduction in heat loss is very small. So there is a bit of psychological benefit to a space blanket, but the actual benefit is small.

The bottom line is that adding a space blanket will help make any sleeping mat (or combination of mats) "warmer" (i.e. increase the R value and hence reduce the rate of heat loss). The question is whether it's easier (and lighter) to just have a higher rated mat in the first place. I'm pretty sure it would be more effective to add a thin foam layer rather than a space blanket - you'd get more "R" for the weight and a bit of extra padding too.

Cheers,
Alliecat

[corvus]

alliecat,
Thanks for that when you say a thin foam layer what exactly do you mean as the "blue closed cell mats " mats I own weigh around the 270g mark .
corvus

Last edited by corvus on Sun 03 Jul, 2011 9:07 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[South_Aussie_Hiker]

Emailed ultralightoutdoorgear.co.uk regarding this mat.

They should have it in stock mid July. Will probably be a lot cheaper from the UK than from the states.

[Jellybean]

alliecat,
Thanks for that when you say a thin foam layer what exactly do you mean as the "blue closed cell mats " mats I own weigh around the 270g mark .
corvus

I use one of these - http://gossamergear.com/sleeping/1-8.html - works a treat and weighs only 55g. You can also get other thicknesses (check out the Gossamer Gear website, which also home to these (http://gossamergear.com/shelters/shelte ... edium.html) - these two items rank as two of my best ever lightweight gear purchases - and these (http://gossamergear.com/trekking.html#), which I haven't yet had a chance to use.

Cheers,

JB