Kathmandu slumps on sales warning

[Marwood]

http://www.smh.com.au/business/kathmandu-slumps-on-sales-warning-20111222-1p664.html

I'm heroically refraining from offering a comment...

[wayno]

can they sell anymore stuff in NZ? everywhere you look people are walking around wearing their gear in the street..... new shops opening all the time, theres hardly a suburb that doesnt have one nearby... they absolutely raked it in as a result of the chch earthquake not to mention a late but decent winter, i dont think anyone down there has any more need for outdoors clothes this xmas... I don't think they have much to complain about.
macpac are slowly increasing their presence around the place and going head to head with them in the sales... mountain designs are also opening more shops.
kathmandu have ruled the roost for long enough by virtue of their sales and presence. it's time the mass population discovered some variety in outdoor gear before two nations end up looking like kathmandu clones....

[Ent]

O'well the saying "you can fool most of the people some of the time but not all the people all of the time" is coming true. I think that the great unwashed have woken up that an item three times overprice is still 50% over priced in a half price sale. It is bad when a 50% sale merino wool top is still dearer than a MD full price top and even a Paddy Pallin full price top. Went looking with a friend for her birthday present, a showerproof bike jacket. For the item prices were in the $70 to $100 range in at various bike shops. Kathmandu's equivalent was $180 but on half price for $90. Bike shops are by no means cheap so you get the idea.

I chuckle when I see an item that was full price at Kathmandu three years ago at $20 now being sold at $40, if not more. It use to be on the shelves for a season before it was put on half price but now the next day it is half price O'well, what was the address of that internet online shop again

Cheers

[wayno]

who's to blame? kathmandu for selling at those prices? or the consumers for not shopping around?
mind you i read that the volume of parcel mail to australia from overseas has gone up over 20% in one year.... at least some of the population are wising up on how to get a deal...
still a lot of outdoor shops still go under. partly because kathmandu can afford a presense on the high streets, partly because they capture people with advertising. partly because a lot of outdoor brands still charge ridiculous wholesale prices esp in various countries like ours.
there's too many people willing to pay whatever the asking price is when they walk into a shop for the sake of convenience... and too many people who get sucked in by the word "sale" and assume it's a deal and automatically go into buying mode.... heaven knows i used to be as guilty as sin of doing that when i was younger....
theres also the marketing strategy where some items are a reasonable deal but the rest arent and the punters assume because they got one item at a good price then everything is a reasonable price when infact it has a horrendous markup.
maybe more people are voting with their feet now? or maybe it's just the recession that's keeping people from buying.

[JohnM]

What makes anyone think that the consumer is suddenly deciding to punish kathmandu for their tricky business model? These forecast results are pretty much on a par with every other retailer out there.

Retail is taking a hammering across the board, and it's just Kathmandu's time in the headlines today because they've just announced a profit warning.

[Rob A]

Yes they are carefully talking percentages and not sales revinues.
A month or so ago Kath was subject of a saturday morning economic report on telly.
I wasnt paying much attention but the volumes were staggering. So was the profit.

Plus .... '''full year profit growth remains achievable'' says Mr Halket. Ohh he must be bleeding .

[photohiker]

Whether we like the product or not, the current non bushwalking retail reality bites. Kathmandu is a mainstream brand now, not a niche outdoor gear supplier. They've been very clever in offering own brand products wherever they can which is how they can make those margins. We already know that the only time you get a fair price for the item is to buy it on sale, the rest of the time they're creaming it.

More Sharemarket nonsense from a couple of days ago.

And your super is probably heavily invested in the sharemarket. Worry. A Lot.

No, I don't have any Kathmandu or Billabong shares.

[Mark F]

Consumers and markets seem to be punishing mid range retailers, just look at what happened to Billabong this week. Most, more committed walkers are unlikely to consider Kathmandu for packs or sleeping bags but the clothing can be ok. I have several bits of Kathmandu clothing that I am quite happy with. What we need to realise is that Kathmandu is not interested in the bushwalker, it is targeted directly at the traveler and those on the fringes of outdoor activities; the bushwalking equipment is just there to give a veneer of respectability and create an impression of technical know-how. Their gear range has almost no choice but allows a person to fairly completely outfit themselves for general bushwalking.

In marketing terms the increase in the sales of clothing and accessories compared to the major items required for the activity is a sign of a maturing market. It was pointed out to me many years ago about tennis, sales of racquets and balls stagnated in the late 1970's but clothing sales and accessories continued to grow at a phenomenal rate. The same has happened to bushwalking with the range of clothing available in bushwalking shops the late 70's limited to a few rain jackets (oiled and dry japara and that new fangled Goretex) and wool shirts plus wool gloves, socks and balaclavas.

The thing I lament most about current retailing is that the more serious gear shops, in Canberra at least, carry almost no maps (Paddy's has the best selection)

[Ent]

I agree with sentiment that dedicated enthusiastic shops are been driven out or taken over by the "mother brand". MD in Launceston was an independently owned franchisee selling a wide range of gear as well as the MD corporate line. You could go in and check out a Wilderness Equipment pack against a One Planet one plus a MD and the range of imports that MD sells. Now it is a corporate store and gone is Wilderness Equipment and One Planet packs I do not begrudge the owners selling out as a business is in a way their superannuation and they deserve to be rewarded for their hard work.

I brawled with Black Diamond USA over their Aussie pricing and got a distributors line that small market size forces the price up. So I sent the guy a list of prices for headlamps from other manufacturers sold through specialised torch selling local distributors compared to USA pricing and the difference was barely the GST so that argument went down in flames. BD finally admitted that pricing was rather high in Australia due to distributor margins, not retail ones. A brand that will remain nameless to avoid a spiralling downward argument had (has?) three websites, one in Euros, one in AUD and one in NZ. Apply the exchange rates conversions and Europe was paying a lot more than Australia, that was paying more than NZ. Rather the inverse of the market size argument

Generally consumers are getting smarter and that is killing the "imagine" brands that have no substance. Harvey Norman whines about the internet but many high quality manufactures can now get their products out. Also niche brands can prosper. Is that not a good thing?

Cheers

[wayno]

theres no money in paper maps anymore, other than tourist maps, with digital maps taking over in sales and in freebies online.

[wayno]

seems not all retailers are struggling at xmas
kathmandu have more competition than they once had

No retail rout for us, says Macpac

http://m.nzherald.co.nz/business/news/article.cfm?c_id=3&objectid=10775083

[photohiker]

Ha! Our blacksheep having a dig a Kathmandu. Gold!

If you look at the two brands, in Australia Kathmandu is a mainstream brand now whilst MacPac remains niche. Kathmandu have tapped into a much wider market and as such are more subject to the whims of the fickle public retail spend. We know retail in general are doing it hard, good on MacPac for swimming against the tide.

Merry Christmas!

[wayno]

at least in nz, theres a few new macpac stores a stones throw from kathmandu shops, so easier for people to shop around

[icemancometh]

Macpac as far as I know is owned by former Kathmandu associated people and is becoming a little brother clone. A lot of their gear has gone the same way and is by no means niche or specialised anymore. But that's what happens when businesses grow...they become money focussed, which we can't really blame them for.

And you can see the other shops trying to copy Kathmandu's model, but without as much success. Without more aggressive sales and the like, the other shops are struggling. If the other shops could've come up with the model first, do you not think they would be using it??

[wayno]

technology wise theres differences between macpac and kathmandu,
macpac made the break from gore tex and went with the superior waterproof breathable membrane eVent
i wouldnt compare items like kathmandu packs with macpac ones. kathmandu ones are pretty minimalist in design , macpacs are a lot more robust and water resistant.
I'd favour macpac tents and sleeping bags as well for design and robustness.
macpac have provided pretty good after sales service no matter how old the gear,
on the whole i've found kathmandu to be more variable in quality than macpac.

[icemancometh]

technology wise theres differences between macpac and kathmandu,
macpac made the break from gore tex and went with the superior waterproof breathable membrane eVent
i wouldnt compare items like kathmandu packs with macpac ones. kathmandu ones are pretty minimalist in design , macpacs are a lot more robust and water resistant.
I'd favour macpac tents and sleeping bags as well for design and robustness.
macpac have provided pretty good after sales service no matter how old the gear,
on the whole i've found kathmandu to be more variable in quality than macpac.

Maybe if you HAD to pick one.
There is a third option and that is 'none of the above'. And Macpac is hardly niche. Their overall quality went down the proverbial when it got taken over and expanded.

It seems that globalisation and technology has seen the slow rise of small, cottage brands that respond quickly to consumer demand and offer customised options. Sure it's at a price but you get what you pay for. And you support local (or US) economies. Good on the little innovators I say.

And then there's the big online dealers who can get your gear which isn't even available and may never be stocked here to you in 2 days and probably at half the price you wold be charged if local retailers stocked them

[Ent]

Hi

I agree with the third way. Look, no single brand name is going to get all items "perfect" so pick the best of bred is my preferred approach. Rather like niche gear manufacturers as it is great talking to them and understanding why they do something. I have learnt a lot and had my prejudices over-turned on a few items. I think the days of "Cat" appearing on clothing to project the image as ultra tough is coming to an end as is one brand fitouts. Even amongst the most brand loyal regular walkers you will rarely find the same brand pack, tent, and sleeping bag even though there is nothing particularly wrong with any item in a single brand's store, just that another brand fills a need a bit better.

I find it fascinating watching people heading out on the OLT. You have the old hands and newbies. Newbies often have been to a single store so you see Kathmandu every thing. It is interesting to see the people that went to old style independent store. Wife might have a WE pack while Dad has a One Planet pack and the kids a Lowe Alpine, etc. Also all their stuff fits inside their packs. Then you see a Kathmandu fit out with mats, sleeping bags, etc handing off the side with no more protection than a plastic shopping bag. I do wonder over the advice that they receive. However, despite my chuckles they nearly all make it through with the vast majority enjoying the experience. Maybe regular walkers are just to enamoured by specifications, not me of course

Cheers

[wayno]

i think it's also the "sale mentality" they get everything on sale at one shop attracted by "savings" the concept has them fired up and not really thinking about alternatives.
younger people tend to be distracted by a lot of different interests and on average would spend less time thinking about what they should buy and go for the convenience of one store. they dont have or want to spend the time considering options.
possibly younger ones are not thinking as much about the quality and more about the savings

[slparker]

Whilst we're Kathmandu bashing.... my goretex jacket bought in the mid-nineties started leaking (probably a gore-tex fault) the sales dude from kathmandu said I'll get it looked at... 1 month later I had a new goretex jacket with a better spec (by far) than my previous one (free of charge on the gore-tex warranty). That was Kathmandu in perth WA. Now I agree that a lot of their stuff is c..p and that they are squarely aimed at the traveller market, but I was impressed with my service at that one shop back in 2005. I still mooch in during their sales to see what they have- I think their merino on sale is good value (certainly better than icebreaker unless you go to the christchurch airport seconds shop). Their basic fleece is fine too. You could never convince me that icebreaker source their wool from special outdoorsy merino sheep or that mountain designs have special 100 weight fleece, so I think it's still good for that sort of basic garment. For specialist gear or 4 season equipment you're obviously better off going to a specialist shop, but then how many average punters are ski-touring in the main range for a week or climbing fed peak? By the time they've got to that level they've probably discovered $1000 arc'teryx jackets anyway.
My main gripe with Kathmandu echoes an earlier comment: do the sales persons really know what they're selling and what advice are they giving the punter? But kathmandu are not on their lonesome in that department. It comes down to individual sales people, unfortunately.

[ollster]

Whilst we're Kathmandu bashing.... my goretex jacket bought in the mid-nineties started leaking (probably a gore-tex fault) the sales dude from kathmandu said I'll get it looked at... 1 month later I had a new goretex jacket with a better spec (by far) than my previous one (free of charge on the gore-tex warranty). That was Kathmandu in perth WA. Now I agree that a lot of their stuff is c..p and that they are squarely aimed at the traveller market, but I was impressed with my service at that one shop back in 2005.

Goretex seem to have a lifetime warranty of some sort.
http://www.gore-tex.com/remote/Satellit ... ep-you-dry

I had a 6 year old MDs jacket that started to de laminate and it was replaced for free. Moral of the story, keep your receipts! If you have a gore-tex jacket, it's always worth a try to take it back if there is any fault what so ever.

Also, just because Kathmandu's equipment is overpriced and sucks balls doesn't mean staff will be horrible people.

[wayno]

agreed, I wouldnt fault some of kathmandu clothes, they are well sourced from the likes of gore tex and polartec. you just have to take care in what you select to buy there and what materials are used and the design...

[wayno]

. I still mooch in during their sales to see what they have- I think their merino on sale is good value (certainly better than icebreaker unless you go to the christchurch airport seconds shop). .

ice breaker have other outlet shops in auckland, also one in melbourne, , they do the odd big sale at the end of each season.

you can see where the outlet shops are here http://nz.icebreaker.com/on/demandware. ... cator-List

[icemancometh]

i think it's also the "sale mentality" they get everything on sale at one shop attracted by "savings" the concept has them fired up and not really thinking about alternatives.
younger people tend to be distracted by a lot of different interests and on average would spend less time thinking about what they should buy and go for the convenience of one store. they dont have or want to spend the time considering options.
possibly younger ones are not thinking as much about the quality and more about the savings

The sales mentality does play a part but often I find it's the older crowd who have just decided to get out walking who are more easily lured by the sales and more 'department store' like shops. (They cater to their market just like everybody else and they saw the travel/sometime walking crowd as those with $$$ and willing to spend). They also have more spending money and are happy to pay top $$$, whereas the younger ones will beg steal or borrow. But maybe it's just those new to the game and pay for the learning experience.

On the subject of merino, my favourite has actually been an OR piece I got dirt cheap from Bivouac. Icebreaker would be next, and Kathmandu after them. I don't like the feel of the Macpac or MD, though the latter 3 I don't like the cut of their tops so don't wear any of theirs. Another great merino top I've owned for yonks is a cheapie from Wilderness Wear.

And $1000 Arcteryx jackets for the Main Range/Fed Peak? I think I'll wait for a good Cuben WP to come out!

[slparker]

yeah I was being facetious, iceman, it's actually only $999 for arc'teryx

[wayno]

yeah I was being facetious, iceman, it's actually only $999 for arc'teryx

never seen bigger price reductions than when last seasons arcteryx go on sale.... what do the distributors do, insist that the retailers ratchet the price up as much as possible for normal retail to appear that they are that much better than the rest? i'm still waiting for them to put gold thread in their clothes.