Critiquing gear Do manufacturers ever listen??

[Jellybean]

I think I have a solution for you .... go along to a SEABL or an NBL (semi-pro or pro basketball) game. In that audience I can tell you that you will be, for all intents and purposes, of decidedly average height (works for me! ). While you are there, you might ask a few people where they get their clothes.

Do you really think that would help?

[Ent]

Hi Jellybean

Before the Maybach was re-released as a brand name, it sent a team from Germany with tape measures in toe to ensure that many of their potential customers fitted in it That is what I call listening Sadly, Maybach is not really suited for getting to the start of many tracks in Tassie so I did not buy one Sort of wonder how well NBL dress gear would work in the bush and those gold chains look heavy Might work as ice-grippers if wrapped around a set of Nike Air

Good to see that you have not cease to grumble about me amongst others

Cheers

[Strider]

i did that once, took some gear around tailors i wanted fixed

Why did you want the tailors fixed? And were you hoping your gear would help you achieve this in some way?

[photohiker]

i did that once, took some gear around tailors i wanted fixed

Why did you want the tailors fixed? And were you hoping your gear would help you achieve this in some way?

[wayno]

if manufacters are going to take criticism into account, how long would it take them to redesign a product?
i've heard of lead in times for designs being a year or more
look at the outdoor shows they are displaying designs that won't be out for nearly a year and the product is already designed....
and how many people would it take complaining about the same issue before they would consider an issue was big enough to do something about?
theres a limit to how long you can test a product before it is going to be released, how many products don't show defects until the people who use them thrash them for longer than the original product testers do? we read reviews where some products show up the same issue over and over after x period of time. of course there are trade offs, if you're buying lightweight gear dont expect it to handle an endless thrashing.

[wayno]

talking about fixing things, a rivet popped on my new boots., while i was in the south island, got back home to auckland took them back to the shop, they sent them to the vendor in christchurch.... said they'd be back in two weeks.
two weeks later they were still with the repairers.....
i chased it, turned out they'd sent the boots to oamaru to get fixed, but it was a proprietary rivet, it was all in one with the lace hook, the repairer in oamaru didnt have hte proprietary piece and i'm waiting to go tramping..... end result credit note for new boot upgrade at discount.
resoling isnt like it used to be either.... when you could put a generic sole onto a shoe or boot, now things are all custom moulded it's back to the vendor to see if it can be repaired and wait for the extended turn around time....

[Ent]

Good point on warranty and is it really useful? Three times I have seen first hand pack harnesses fail. Warranty is rather meaningless when you are day one on the five-eight day OLT walk and your pack packs it in. In one of the cases the manufacturer gave the owner a full credit. Not sure on the last case as the young lad is still carrying his pack as hand luggage. In my case the manufacturer claimed that it was the old company not the new company's problem. Um? Check to see who owns the brand nowadays and avoid certain names like the plague The brand name is still the same on the pack but such an approach has cost them a great deal in lost sales to a confirm gear freak like me

I tend to see a warranty as a mark of confidence by the manufacturer rather than marketing tool to balance reduction in quality with legislative "fit for the purpose" demands. But others see it as balancing lowest quality with highest price and replacing the dude items. The hint is warranties limited to the statutory minimums or a history of blaming "user misuse". Sure some users will destroy anything but I do find it hard to believe that all users are doing this.

Frankly it is frightening how many things nowadays fail first day out of the box. Hitech boots is an example. Paddy Pallin sent them back and after the mandatory two or greater week delay issued a full credit. Great that PP were willing to solve the problem but still mucked up the person's hiking plans for those weekends. Wilderness Equipment took two attempts to fix an obvious design issue with their stitching on my gaiters. In the end they came through but much better if the issue did not exist in the first place. Again PP stood by their customer but this cost them money that has to come from higher margins.

Today my latest fix for my gear addiction turned up after six weeks delay due to US Post misplacing the parcel. Actually the first time as normally postage time from the USA is excellent. One torch was dead on arrival. The head lamp refused to work with the high performance cells as claimed, and the third had a known design problem that was identified on a forum similar to this. Now I am sure that the supplier shipped the products in good faith and will likely solve the issues but the cost of doing so means ever future order needs to be a little bit dearer. Yes the items were bleeding edge stuff but the brands are normally excellent so wondering what the heck happened.

Quality control is paramount with bushwalking as when an item fails you can not just belt down to the nearest gum tree and buy another one. I can better understand why many people tend to prefer items with a proven history of working rather than going for the latest craze in weight saving or trendiness. Problem is brand owners change, even if the brand name does not, and quality control or standards change. I do appreciate quality companies like One Planet, Hilleberg, etc. Also for some the over engineering of Black Diamond walking poles is appreciated. For others it is unnecessary weight. No issue as long as they can get what they want and I can as well unhindered by restraint of trade agreements.

Cheers

[wayno]

yeah i dont mind forking out money for something i think will be reliable. kind of piece of mind when you're out there in the wops
Never great when new gear fails, especially expensive gear and your multi day trip has just begun,..
maybe serves me right for buying lightweight boots? but i'm not about to go back to my heavyweights just yet..
i remember the older style boots, you knew they'd had it when you got a stabbing pain in your foot, from the screw that held the rubber sole to the base of the boot had rusted through letting the shaft seperate from the head and come through into the sole of your foot.... ah such nostalgic memories

[Moondog55]

Mountain Designs still haven't acknowledged me.
A week since i sent them an email telling them what was wrong ( in my opinion ) with the product, looks like small claims matter when I return then and making my own.

[icemancometh]

Just reread your OP.

I understand you are not happy with the pants but it seemed like a lot of it you knew was wrong with the item before taking it out on this trip, like the pockets and the resort styling...so I'm a little confused why you would take it on this trip?

Most of my ski pants are resort style pants. When I ski outside the resorts, I dress as I would for alpine/BC trips, ie non WP, etc and would never consider resort style pants.

[photohiker]

Moondog, you'll probably get a much better response dealing with them in person (not saying they shouldn't answer your email though)

Print it out and take it with the gear and the receipt to your local MD store. Ask to see the manager. I've found them very accommodating for way more minor complaints than this in the past.

[icemancometh]

I've found the opposite...managers tend to fob you off esp if expensive items (only works for little things) but when they get a notice from head office or whoever telling them they need to appease so and so about such and such they are much nicer in responding.

[Moondog55]

I took them because the problems looked to be minor when in Australia at -5C, the design faults become MAJOR at -28C.
Also they were what I had and nothing better could be found searching the net for USA stores in NY with appropriate product.

[Moondog55]

Also the manager of the Geelong store said words to the effect that Alpine climbing and such were what the pants were designed for, looking around here I have been unable to find anything as good ( tough; simple; easy to use light etc ) as the stuff from about 20 years ago when WE made these.

Patagonia used to make great gear but the latest offerings seem ( like MD who copied the design almost verbatim from Patagonia ) seem to be aimed at the resort crowd and not mountain bums like me.

[Jellybean]

Also the manager of the Geelong store said words to the effect that Alpine climbing and such were what the pants were designed for, looking around here I have been unable to find anything as good ( tough; simple; easy to use light etc ) as the stuff from about 20 years ago when WE made these.

Patagonia used to make great gear but the latest offerings seem ( like MD who copied the design almost verbatim from Patagonia ) seem to be aimed at the resort crowd and not mountain bums like me.

Just out of curiosity ... I don't think the question has been asked ... were these pants designed for Australian alpine conditions (given MD is an Australian company) or alpine conditions anywhere in the world? Also, were you using them as the manufacturer intended (for climbing)? Obviously alpine conditions are vastly different here to alpine conditions experienced elsewhere in the world. Further, pants designed for one activity may or may not be suitable fr all alpine activities. I think that the answer to these questions would determine whether or not it is worth complaining and whether or not MD should be expected to do anything about there pants perceived shortcomings?

Cheers,

JB

[photohiker]

I've found the opposite...managers tend to fob you off esp if expensive items

Not had that experience. Generally, faced with an organised and committed customer, a local manager is more likely to take up the cause of the customer than to try to fob him off, even if they don't have the authority to grant the customer's wishes on the spot.

Remote communications via email are very easy to drop on the floor. Sometimes they drop on the floor of their own accord because of spam filters etc. so if there is no response you need to follow up anyway to make sure the response you think you are getting (or not getting) is the one intended.

[photohiker]

Also the manager of the Geelong store said words to the effect that Alpine climbing and such were what the pants were designed for, looking around here I have been unable to find anything as good ( tough; simple; easy to use light etc ) as the stuff from about 20 years ago when WE made these.

Patagonia used to make great gear but the latest offerings seem ( like MD who copied the design almost verbatim from Patagonia ) seem to be aimed at the resort crowd and not mountain bums like me.

What about NWAlpine? $US250 They're not from 'around here', but TBH I wouldn't be looking around here if I wanted serious alpine gear as opposed to fashionable light duty gear. NWAlpine Salopettes review. Seem to be well regarded from several sources from what I can see...

I've been using a pair of Mont Synchro pants for skiing cross country and downhill. They're pretty good for that, hard wearing, but the fabric is too stiff and the cut too loose IMO and I don't think I'd go climbing in them (but then again, I don't think I'll go climbing either)

[corvus]

Also the manager of the Geelong store said words to the effect that Alpine climbing and such were what the pants were designed for, looking around here I have been unable to find anything as good ( tough; simple; easy to use light etc ) as the stuff from about 20 years ago when WE made these.

Patagonia used to make great gear but the latest offerings seem ( like MD who copied the design almost verbatim from Patagonia ) seem to be aimed at the resort crowd and not mountain bums like me.

Just out of curiosity ... I don't think the question has been asked ... were these pants designed for Australian alpine conditions (given MD is an Australian company) or alpine conditions anywhere in the world? Also, were you using them as the manufacturer intended (for climbing)? Obviously alpine conditions are vastly different here to alpine conditions experienced elsewhere in the world. Further, pants designed for one activity may or may not be suitable fr all alpine activities. I think that the answer to these questions would determine whether or not it is worth complaining and whether or not MD should be expected to do anything about there pants perceived shortcomings?

Cheers,

JB

According to their advertising they are for hard core alpine enthusiasts.
http://www.mountaindesigns.com/online-s ... odID=11856
corvus

[icemancometh]

Also the manager of the Geelong store said words to the effect that Alpine climbing and such were what the pants were designed for, looking around here I have been unable to find anything as good ( tough; simple; easy to use light etc ) as the stuff from about 20 years ago when WE made these.

Patagonia used to make great gear but the latest offerings seem ( like MD who copied the design almost verbatim from Patagonia ) seem to be aimed at the resort crowd and not mountain bums like me.

Just out of curiosity ... I don't think the question has been asked ... were these pants designed for Australian alpine conditions (given MD is an Australian company) or alpine conditions anywhere in the world? Also, were you using them as the manufacturer intended (for climbing)? Obviously alpine conditions are vastly different here to alpine conditions experienced elsewhere in the world. Further, pants designed for one activity may or may not be suitable fr all alpine activities. I think that the answer to these questions would determine whether or not it is worth complaining and whether or not MD should be expected to do anything about there pants perceived shortcomings?

Cheers,

JB

According to their advertising they are for hard core alpine enthusiasts.
http://www.mountaindesigns.com/online-s ... odID=11856
corvus

That's just suggestive advertising. I've seen these and thought they were not my cup of tea. That was like 6 years ago? Heavy. Gore. Expensive. Poor design. Seen people sweating away in them before who liked them though.

I went with a pair of Cloudveil softshell pants and loved them. Lightly insulated softshell, great for alpine climbing and BC skiing. This was back when Schoeller was the fabric and the cuts were good, not like the current offerings from Cloudveil imo. There were issues with the pockets (not the end of the world), but it was the lack of adequate zip opening for answering the call of nature while in a climbing harness that made me look elsewhere. Then I found NWA.

I second the NWAlpine Salopettes. Clean, simple, brilliant. The Hoody is also a great item though I would like to see a 'better balaclava' on it offering more coverage like the R1, another half inch longer maybe? and maybe a slightly different material in that area so it doesn't get caught up on the helmet strap. Great for ski, climb, fly, hike. Great fabric, great cut and design.

I own both of these items and am a big fan of their gear. Can't wait for an expanded range...WP, windshirt, belay jacket, and would buy on design and fit alone (luckily the owner is a very similar build to me but I have longer legs).

[Jellybean]

Also the manager of the Geelong store said words to the effect that Alpine climbing and such were what the pants were designed for, looking around here I have been unable to find anything as good ( tough; simple; easy to use light etc ) as the stuff from about 20 years ago when WE made these.

Patagonia used to make great gear but the latest offerings seem ( like MD who copied the design almost verbatim from Patagonia ) seem to be aimed at the resort crowd and not mountain bums like me.

Just out of curiosity ... I don't think the question has been asked ... were these pants designed for Australian alpine conditions (given MD is an Australian company) or alpine conditions anywhere in the world? Also, were you using them as the manufacturer intended (for climbing)? Obviously alpine conditions are vastly different here to alpine conditions experienced elsewhere in the world. Further, pants designed for one activity may or may not be suitable fr all alpine activities. I think that the answer to these questions would determine whether or not it is worth complaining and whether or not MD should be expected to do anything about there pants perceived shortcomings?

Cheers,

JB

According to their advertising they are for hard core alpine enthusiasts.
http://www.mountaindesigns.com/online-s ... odID=11856
corvus

Thanks Corvus. Doesn't answer the question about Australian alpine or all (global) alpine conditions though - can be vastly, vastly different.

[Ent]

According to their advertising they are for hard core alpine enthusiasts.
http://www.mountaindesigns.com/online-s ... odID=11856
corvus

Thanks Corvus. Doesn't answer the question about Australian alpine or all (global) alpine conditions though - can be vastly, vastly different.

I looked at the link Corvus provided and checked out the contact details and the company gave only Australian and the NZ map. Maybe I am being a bit simple but that suggests to me that Australia and NZ are the primary intended market.

Surely if a company cared then they should answer customer concerns where ever they may come from. Yes I have struck the email bin that goes no-where but the companies that have done that are quick to apologies and fix the problem.

As for local store management, that is a mix bag. Some are great and others not so great. If it is an obvious failure then most are good. Mountain Design is not bad and will go the extra yard from what I have seen but do not think I actually personally have had a problem with any stuff that I have brought plus dealt mainly with independent MD stores ironically buying non MD branded items. Only trouble is if the problem is a more a design fault causing the item to not perform then there can be a lot of erring and umming.

Most people just want stuff to work and not be mucked around. MD once was great then very poor and has come back a bit in the design of stuff. Almost that someone was meddling that did not understand the difference between functionality and fashion.

I will be interested to see how you get on as I do varying my buying decision based on what people strike on this forum. Sure there is always a chance of a bad item but that is when you find out if the retailer or manufacturer is any good.

Cheers

[wayno]

have you looked at the macpac prophet pants?

[Jellybean]

According to their advertising they are for hard core alpine enthusiasts.
http://www.mountaindesigns.com/online-s ... odID=11856
corvus

Thanks Corvus. Doesn't answer the question about Australian alpine or all (global) alpine conditions though - can be vastly, vastly different.

I looked at the link Corvus provided and checked out the contact details and the company gave only Australian and the NZ map. Maybe I am being a bit simple but that suggests to me that Australia and NZ are the primary intended market.

Surely if a company cared then they should answer customer concerns where ever they may come from.

Thanks Brett. If that is the intended market then one can't complain too loudly when the pants don't perform in -28C in the US!? (That's not what they were designed for). Although you would hope that a reply to an email might be forthcoming, in the name of customer service.

[corvus]

You can however according to the online ordering system purchase MD products if you are overseas so not so Australasian afterall
http://www.mountaindesigns.com/about-us ... nline.aspx
corvus

[Moondog55]

MD premise a lot of their sales on the reputation they developed making gear for Himalayan climbing, especially Everest, so the designers should know what is needed and expected in cold, very cold and severe cold conditions.
Minus 30C is about the functional limit of Goretex anyway I am led to understand but I had no problem with the fabric or the construction.

[wayno]

what about north face point five pants?
cas and jonesy got to and from the south pole in north face

http://www.thenorthface.com.au/webapp/w ... iationId=*

[Moondog55]

what about north face point five pants?
cas and jonesy got to and from the south pole in north face

http://www.thenorthface.com.au/webapp/w ... iationId=*

I need bib & brace.
My need for B&B has been decided after 30 years of winter walking and ski touring, like most decisions it is very personal.
The pocket on the front of the bib is the best place I have found for the little things you need from time to time and also the best place to put the gloves and hat you need to doff and don constantly to maintain thermal regulation.
The Wilderness Equipment B & B may have been simple and agricultural but that simplicity was their best feature

[icemancometh]

what about north face point five pants?
cas and jonesy got to and from the south pole in north face

http://www.thenorthface.com.au/webapp/w ... iationId=*

Perhaps because they are now sponsored by them?

I agree, bibs are great for cold weather...real BBs not the slightly higher pants with braces...stops drafts/snow etc getting in and more useful pockets, stash places for wet gloves and more efficient because you dont lose heat through that gap.

[wayno]

couldnt see anything that had a higher cut like proper bibs on the north face site. that was the aussie site they might only have them overseas and you'll have trouble importing.... unless you know a way around the vendor restrictions

[Moondog55]

Well it seems that a couple of emails got lost slipping over the Pacific, MD replied to my email noting their failure to reply and have sked me to drop off the pants at the Geelong store and they are going to look them over to address my specific comments on what I perceive as serious design flaws.
Gore have also asked me to contact them .
So some manufacturers do respond