Critiquing gear Do manufacturers ever listen??

[Ent]

Be very interested in what they say and even more so what they do. MD seem to be improving but I would like to see others experience if this is the case or just a wrong feeling that I have.

Cheers

[wayno]

I"ve got a couple of their fleeces. good ightweight thick fleeces. the thor was the thickest flece around, good prices too., the designs nad styles do seem to change.
i bought a softshell. one coment is there wasnt anything to seal off the cuffs to keep the wind out. but i only bought it for casual wear.

[Moondog55]

I am going to keep every-one posted on the progress, certainly Gore themselves do seem serious about their side of the warranty/guarantee.

One note here, while I have not been a total fan of Goretex over the years the fabric itself performed brilliantly.

A total re-design of my clothing may be in the offing too, I saw some absolutely brilliant stuff in the shops in the USA, light windproof and highly breathable but no-where could I find bib & brace overalls except for some older USMC stuff that wasn't worth buying as the condition was too poor.
Apart from the weight my US Army goretex ECWCS coat also performed very very well ( Also heavy weight Goretex XCR fabric )
I managed to get a pair of the ECWCS 'happy pants " in my size and these are brilliant if a little heavier than the Patagonia version , the military version use a heavier
( 150GSM )insulation then the 100gsm of the Patagucci micropuff bivvy pants

http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/mic ... 5&pcc=1128

and use EPIC fabric which is orders of magnitude better in foul weather ( but 50% heavier ) than the retail product.

[wayno]

i think i saw sme bib & braces on the northface site in the states, but I think it was designed for skiing

[Moondog55]

I saw literally hundreds of insulated B&B sets while we were over there, the famous Minnesota tuxedo, usually in safety orange or commercial hunting patterns but also in very heavy duty canvas for working in ( Carhartt ) but shell sets I never saw

[Moondog55]

I also saw these in very heavy worsted and felted wool

[Moondog55]

I now hold in my hand a return credit for $499-
Nice exchange of views and ideas with the sales team at MD and the laughs ( quickly followed by apologies LOL ) when I told the girls why I was complaining about the zippered fly.

my problem is still where to get a pair of proper B&B mountaineering pants.
What should I get from MD with my credit note??

Apart from a belay parka which they don't make I really do not need much ; perhaps a new cold weather mat??

[wayno]

you should send them a bill for your design advice... he he

[Moondog55]

Well the sales girls seemed to think I know what I am talking about.

Maybe I should just wait, there is NOTHING in their current line-up I would consider buying, the sleeping mats seem a little too heavy and the current range of sleeping bags do not excite me.
Their current "Top of the line" duvet isn't as good as the one I own from 20 years ago.
Anybody want the voucher for a 7% discount??

[icemancometh]

Well, I wasn't holding my breath for you but now you got an answer to your Q re do manufacturers ever listen?
Apparently MD does, in this case at least

[Moondog55]

I think it helped that my critique was phased in words of more than one syllable, i am interested to see if they actually keep me in the loop.

Shame that there is nothing in the current line-up worth buying as a stopgap or as an alternative.

[icemancometh]

so what are your requirements? ie if you had the option to design it from the ground up?

Fabric, features, etc

What size/insulation are you after in the Belay Jacket? I've got one or two synthetics I've been meaning to move...bought too big-about XL if I recall.

IF you don't mind the weight, maybe try Cactus Equipment in NZ and see if they can do some kind of custom job, they're burly and well made by all reports. I'm most likely to go to a pair of their Dreadnoughts when I get a chance to try them on for resort/sidecountry as normal ski pants don't hold up to wear
http://www.cactusclimbing.co.nz/index.p ... gory_id=75

[sthughes]

I guess the real proof as to wether they listened (or just refunded your money to shut you up/keep you happy) will come in a year or so when they do or do not fix the issues with their product.

[Moondog55]

I guess the real proof as to wether they listened (or just refunded your money to shut you up/keep you happy) will come in a year or so when they do or do not fix the issues with their product.

So true.
keep your eyes open fellers.

[Moondog55]

[quote="icemancometh"]so what are your requirements? ie if you had the option to design it from the ground up?

Fabric, features, etc

What size/insulation are you after in the Belay Jacket? I've got one or two synthetics I've been meaning to move...bought too big-about XL if I recall.
=quote)

Something similar to the Patagucci DAS

but if I am going to completely redo my gear it needs to be XXL to go over my ECWCS parka

[Ent]

Great news on the refund. That is an important first step. Design will be the interesting one. Often preferences (mine being long) just get howled down by the majority views. The question really is, "do others see merit in your request enough to shell out the readies". I have noticed that the "best" products are ones designed by a person that does a lot of an activity and finds not much good out there so builds a better mouse trap. Trouble is the "reason" for the design gets lost when stylist and marketers get involved.

The trouble with marketing types is that they get bored. Many people are happy have something for five years and re-buy when it eventually fails. Marketing types tend to think that they can force an earlier sale by some design attribute, colour, cut, etc.

Cheers

[wayno]

the outdoor gear industry is like any fashion industry,
they change everything and try to convince you it's better and you need to buy it, they are trying to get you to abandon your current gear, if you don't, their profits slump or they go into the red...
problem is over the years most people work longer hours now than in previous years and decades and have less time to get out there to wear their gear out to need to replace it... so the marketers have to work overtime to convince us to replace it...

[Moondog55]

In about 3 years of looking I have not found one maker of proper bibbed sallopettes.
Used to be made by many firms, Patagonia, Mountain Hardware, Berghaus, our own Wilderness Equipment until Gore stopped supplying fabric and Crossfire the military contractor; I resisted for years because of the initial high cost but having used B&B for years nothing else comes close to the dependable security of proper mountaineering wear even for ski touring on the High Plains.

Here are my criteria again.
Lightest weight fabric possible commensurate with durability
Reinforced knees , double layered and not stitched down at the bottom ( to allow the adding of CCF for padding)
Double layer on the backside or a heavier more durable fabric
Full length leg zippers which start at the top
Bibbed to just under the neck/armpits ( -130mm/-165mm )
Waterproof zip fly opening from the bottom and starting well down the crutch area
Bagged knees with 3 tucks each of 12mm with the middle tuck in the position of my bent knee.
Crampon/ski patch on the inside of ankle
Adjustable elastic cuff at the bottom hem.
Map pocket on left thigh Slightly bellowed
Large bellows pocket on the chest, big enough to hold a wool or fleece hat and a few sundry items like a pack of barley sugar
Adjustable and elasticated waist

Apart from the zipped fly which were not available at the time these were what WE made for me back in late 1980

[icemancometh]

Something similar to the Patagucci DAS

but if I am going to completely redo my gear it needs to be XXL to go over my ECWCS parka[/quote]

how about this?
http://www.montbell.us/products/disp.php?cat_id=73&p_id=2301144

[Strider]

In about 3 years of looking I have not found one maker of proper bibbed sallopettes.
Used to be made by many firms, Patagonia, Mountain Hardware, Berghaus, our own Wilderness Equipment until Gore stopped supplying fabric and Crossfire the military contractor; I resisted for years because of the initial high cost but having used B&B for years nothing else comes close to the dependable security of proper mountaineering wear even for ski touring on the High Plains.

Here are my criteria again.
Lightest weight fabric possible commensurate with durability
Reinforced knees , double layered and not stitched down at the bottom ( to allow the adding of CCF for padding)
Double layer on the backside or a heavier more durable fabric
Full length leg zippers which start at the top
Bibbed to just under the neck/armpits ( -130mm/-165mm )
Waterproof zip fly opening from the bottom and starting well down the crutch area
Bagged knees with 3 tucks each of 12mm with the middle tuck in the position of my bent knee.
Crampon/ski patch on the inside of ankle
Adjustable elastic cuff at the bottom hem.
Map pocket on left thigh Slightly bellowed
Large bellows pocket on the chest, big enough to hold a wool or fleece hat and a few sundry items like a pack of barley sugar
Adjustable and elasticated waist

Apart from the zipped fly which were not available at the time these were what WE made for me back in late 1980

And I want a pig that flies, but unfortunately no one is prepared to make one for just me

[Moondog55]

I have to say this now; having just had a long phone conversation with a representative of WLGore; that in general they do take feedback and complaints seriously.

Apparently MD is a redesign period and are taking my critique seriously.
I hope so because if the do fix the zipper fly problem ( and hopefully use a full bib with pocket ) I will wait until the new pants are in stock to use my credit.

I Would like to know how many members here would buy full bib mountaineering pants if they make a return to the market or if I am in a minority of one.

[photohiker]

I Would like to know how many members here would buy full bib mountaineering pants if they make a return to the market or if I am in a minority of one.

I'm not into mountaineering, but I offer that if full bib mountaineering pants were the answer, they'd be in production somewhere, probably at the very least in one of the smaller cottage producers in places with lots of snowy mountains. That they are apparently not in such production, tends to indicate that mountaineers in general have moved on from that design, and yes, you may be the only one, but probably not.

[Moondog55]

I was thinking more along the lines of people trying to minimise the equipment costs.
if I wanted insulated I could get plenty, while I was in the US I saw that most hunting gear was B&B Hunting like mountaineering has lots of standing around doing nothing interspersed with lots of highly aerobic activity

[north-north-west]

Rather than blame manufacturers for making something that doesn't fit, how about we just don't buy anything that doesn't fit,

I'm talking about FINDING things that fit so that I can buy them.

And why can't they make hiking pants with stretch fabric? One wouldn't need so much extra room in the seat then.

[Moondog55]

Rather than blame manufacturers for making something that doesn't fit, how about we just don't buy anything that doesn't fit,

I'm talking about FINDING things that fit so that I can buy them.

And why can't they make hiking pants with stretch fabric? One wouldn't need so much extra room in the seat then.

They do, but in cold weather fabrics, Schoeller springs to mind; I like a little extra room in my gear as I find ventilation far more important than insulation but I am not the 95th percentile male; I am one of the 5%

Gore are reluctant to supply small bespoke makers and if they did the gore warranty would not apply

[Moondog55]

Strider WE did, that is the crux of my problem, there is no-one left who is willing to make a "ONE-OFF" garment.
Doing so with WE was not cheap which is why I was so P****d off when the Gore fabric died. Admittedly Gore honoured the warranty, not to the extent of having a maker do a singleton; but only so far as to something that was on the market
Having talked to ice climbers in Keene while I was there what I want is in demand and would be bought if it was again back on the market, and I know that the high B&B is the best garment design for our crappy wet snow conditions