Down Jacket recommendation?

[LTM]

I couldn't turn much up on the forum via the search function. I am looking to get a lightweight down jacket with the best possible warmth to weight ratio. I want something for the evenings after a days trekking in the Himalaya when it will be below zero C. It will be the main source of warmth. I have been looking at the US brands and Rab.

What would you recommend?

[forest]

If you want the best warmth to weight ratio drop an email off to ben at goosefeet (In the US). He will make you a jacket to whatever you want.
Get a 7d or M50 shell and stuff it with 4oz of 900fill.
Toasty right there and you would be hard pressed to find a better weight / warmth ratio.... Costs $$$ though.
If I buy another down jacket it's what I would do.

Any of the Montbell Jackets are good value. The Alpine light is nice and warm. I have the parka and it's been toasty down to -7° for me.

Feathered Friends or Western Mountaineering make light, warm jackets but Ben would make one at a comparable price that would be lighter.

The FF Daybreak is a nice choice between the UL MB jackets and the heavier Alpine light series. Costs more though.

The RAB micro lights are good but I have read somewhere that they leak a lot of down with all those small baffles.

[Moondog55]

What is your budget, also will you be using it when you get home?
Because if you are only going to be using it in camp for the trip a slightly heavier slightly lower quality will be fine, if fact for this would actually recommend the stuff at Katmandu but only if in the already reduced sale stuff
eg
http://www.kathmandu.com.au/Mens/Jacket ... 2_Men.html

[phan_TOM]

Those Montbell alpne parka's look like pretty good value for money (& the kathmandu when on special...), I'm wishing I had one for next weekend.

If you want to spend a bit more money I'd have also have a look at Montanes stuff, like this one, another 120 bucks but you get 60% more down plus a bunch of other features.

[gayet]

Feathered Friends have a sale on at the moment. They also sock RAB and other brands
http://www.featheredfriendsretail.com/sale---clearance.html

They also custom make if required.

[Lady McGuyver]

There's one right here I'll recommend. . . would be ideal for the Himalaya;
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=9532
Cheers

[LTM]

Thanks for your prompt and helpful responses. I am medium sized unfortunately Lady M.

I am seeking to replace my old 660gm Kathmandu goretex fleece windstopper. It is till serviceable but rolls up to the size of a football in the pack. I am hoping for warmer, lighter and smaller packsize to justify the expense. I can see I won't get much change out of $300 for a good one so that is about my budget. It'll get regular use in zero degree temps as I bushwalk often in winter in the Flinders Ranges where I have experienced -4C.

thanks again.

[ninjapuppet]

I've been doing abit of read up on down jackets myself since I've gotten myself a half bag.
I already own 6 down jackets, but you can never have enough

First of all, if you're going to the himalayas, consider getting one over there in Thamel. My friend just went in feb (their winter) and got a cheap but really thick down jacket for about $70. its obviously low fill down, but its stuffed up truly thick. Ahhh yes, "Too heavy" I hear you say? pay some dude five bucks to get him to carry your whole pack. My friend then got himself a full downsuit from a popular manufacturer for $150. it was probably fake branded but it worked, and it kept him absolutely warm to 5500m in winter and thats all that matters.



if you want absolute warm, to the point of overkill for himalayan summer trekking, get an eddie bauer peak XV. They are the best value super warm parkas around.
Now from my own reserach, I'm eyeing the rab neutrino endurance to sleep in. couldnt decide between the rab infinity, infinity endurance, neutrino, neutrino plus... gets abit confusing.
But i'm part of an alpine club where I can pick up these jackets at hefty discounts (under $200 for the rab neutrino plus) so if you're keen on getting one too, give me a PM and we can make a combined order to save on shipping and save you a heap of dough too. for lightness, i found the Brooks range alpini pretty good at a total of 12.2 oz with 7.5oz of that in down! costed me $130 at half price a few weeks ago at the clymb

For comparisons' sake, western moutnaineering's meltdown jacket is quoted only 6.5oz fill, and weighs 17oz. From my own experience with both brands, they tend to be spot on with their specs (unlike some brands) specs

[Moondog55]

Link

http://www.departmentofgoods.com/stoic- ... norak-mens

Better too much down than not enough tho.
This is probably one trip where bigger really is better, and you really should pay a local to carry your gear, sharing the wealth is expected and a good thing to do.
Any chance of you bringing me back a khukri from Katmandu??

[LTM]

Off to India I am afraid not Nepal! Which is a pity 'cos I would have liked getting a khukri into the cabin and through customs in this day and age;) My walks in the Himalaya are usually DIY so yes locals get the money I spend.

thanks again fo rall these tips and links

[ninjapuppet]

LTM you seem keen on the rab, Ive asked sevaral people that have these jackets, and from what i can gather:

some may disagree, infact, MANY disagree, but the way I see it, a midweight or heavy weight down jacket is to be used only in the cold cold, so a hood is mandatory. some reason most of my down jackets dont have a hood hence i'm looking at the rab for a mid weight down jacket.

the infinity jacket is a shorter cut jacket for alpine climbing where weight is absolute important so no chest pockets or hood drawstring.
infinity endruance is similar cut but with endurance fabric for more water resistance
the neutrino endurance is a longer cut so its slightly warmer with an extra oz of down. extra features like a tuck away hood, cuff velcro, adjustable hood
neutrino plus - 10oz of fill with boxed construction so its warmer and a few other differences.

i am thinking the neutrino endurance is the go. because if weight is utmost importance, ive got the brooks range alpini.

[Moondog55]

Heck I'd never try bringing one into the cabin, LOL. Always carry my sharp tools in my checked luggage
Hood is needed and I prefer mine permanently attached.
Indian made khukris are not anywhere near as good as the Nepali made one tools

[Mountain Rocket]

If you want the best warmth to weight ratio drop an email off to ben at goosefeet (In the US). He will make you a jacket to whatever you want.
Get a 7d or M50 shell and stuff it with 4oz of 900fill.
Toasty right there and you would be hard pressed to find a better weight / warmth ratio.... Costs $$$ though.
If I buy another down jacket it's what I would do.

Hey (again) forest, I am in the process of ordering a new down jacket and I think this is the route I will be taking.
I am current liaising with Ben but I feel silly bombarding him with trivial questions.

Just wondering if you think a jacket like you outlined would be suitable for Tassie? I think 4oz of fill weight is good, but the shell is something I am having trouble deciding on. The style I want is a down pullover with 1/2 length zip. Other features I think I want are a hood, elastic cuffs and hem, reach through front pocket and a storm flap under the zipper.

Any input/suggestions at this stage would be much appreciated.

PS: Sorry for the thread-steal, but my question hardly seemed to warrant its own thread.

[ninjapuppet]

I reckon 4 oz fill would be suitable somewhere in between -5 to -10C for me.

how much is Ben charging you for this jacket?

[LTM]

No worries about the thread steal Robert! Keep us in the loop about this process. I would be interested to hear about shell fabric recommendations too. From the reading I have been doing I have been left wondering about how robust some of the shell fabrics are. For lying around in camp are people wearing their goretex etc over their down jackets?
Thanks again for all the input you guys.

[forest]

Hey (again) forest, I am in the process of ordering a new down jacket and I think this is the route I will be taking.
I am current liaising with Ben but I feel silly bombarding him with trivial questions.

Ben's a nice guy. I wouldn't worry too much about bothering him. He has been quite helpful to me in the past and is generally very quick to respond. He's made some great looking down jackets recently that weigh nothing for the amount of fill and loft.

Anything in the sub 30d shells is pretty thin and I normally chuck a shell on over mine just to be safe, 30d and up I have found pretty good for general wear but it makes the item a lot heavier if your chasing the lighest weight. I'd be getting the lightest shell possible if it's just a insulation item to take camping. M50 and 7d are the two new wonder kids in the light downproof fabrics. M50 is meant to be more wind resistant over 7d but not by a lot. 7d is meant to have a better feel over M50. 8d is said to leak more down so I've stayed clear of that based on some comments passed to me. From what I have been told M50 has a kind of plasticy feel initially from the DWR finish and some have commented that it's not as nice against the skin as 7d(I asked a heap of people in the US who own M50/7d gear about the fabric's the other week before ordering some new gear)

Either a complete 7d jacket or a M50 outer, 7d inner would be GOLD

If you wanted a colour other than black M50 has more choices as 7d seems to just be in black.
I've just ordered a few quilts made from M50 and 7d but they are a few weeks away so I don't have any first hand experience. I should get my blackrock vest hopefully next week which is 7d so I might be able to first hand comment then more. I was going to have Ben make me a M50 vest but he was very busy and couldn't start on it for a month. I timed a pre-order with blackrockgear for one of his SUL vests just right with a new batch shipping this week.

I'd say 4oz fill would be plenty for tassie. Add a 1/2 oz more if you opt for a hood ??
I have a MB Alpine Light parka which has 4.4oz of 800 fill, 30d shell, Used that last year in the snow on Barrington Tops for 4 days and was very toasty the whole trip at night when wearing it around camp. Most night's were around -7°C. With that fill weight the parka has about 3/4 to 1" of loft all round.
(Pic attached of what 4.4 oz of fill looks like)

IMG_1639.JPG (92.76 KiB) Viewed 19376 times

This year when I do the trip again I'll take my feathered friends daybreak jacket which has 2.8oz of 900 fill and a 10d shell. That with my fleece hoodie and rain shell I'm pretty sure will see me through. I stood on some very cold, very, very windy mountains in NZ last month with that combo on and was warm as.
I'll normally take something fleece as well as my down gear if the temps are forcast below 0°C, For me it's a Melanzana micro grid hoodie or something similar -100wt fleece, Patagucci R1 etc.

I'm good to about 0°C with a little wind with just a merino top good fleece vest and my shell on. (Hence the ordering of the blackrock vest as I can cut the weight of my fleece vest in thirds)

Sorry for the dribble but the light fabric thing is something i've done a bit of soul searching on over the last few weeks. And spent some decent $$$ on. Shhh don't tell my wife

[LTM]

Thanks for that Forest. Many of the jackets appear to have a 30D shell fabric like yours in the picture. Would you be happy leaning up against a rock or fallen tree trunk in camp of an evening in that jacket?
I am interested the ninja's suggestion right now and the Rabs appear to be 30D.

[edwinsoh]

The Patagonia Ultra down Hoody is a great down jacket, light and warm. It packs into its own stuff sack into about the size of a nalgene bottle. It's water resistance although I won't wear it in heavy rain.

Past treks been using the NF Triclimate jacket, warm but weight a ton. Switched to the Patagonia with a light rain jacket on the outside. Very obvious difference in weight.

[dannnnn]

seeings thread-steals are being okayed... what do people think about down vests vs jackets? i do most of my walking in qld where a jacket would probably be overkill. hanging around camp at night time it can get a bit cold, but during the day is generally fine as is sleeping, so i am thinking about a vest for camp warmth and pillow duties. thoughts and/or recommendations?

[iGBH]

I just ordered a Rab Neutrino Endurance Jacket from Urban Rock in the UK who are having a clearance on Rab gear currently (no affiliation here, except a very happy customer) ... http://www.urbanrock.com/neutrino-endurance-jacket
It does look like a great jacket.

Spent a day at Lake Mountain yesterday and was reminded of my need for a good down jacket. About 1c and windchill of -5c.

[Mountain Rocket]

Thanks for the detailed post forest. When I asked Ben about 7d vs M50 he said both are pretty similar in terms of durability, water resistance and breath-ability.
Apparently he is getting some stock of some 8d fabric soon, which he thinks has a better feel and DWR to both M50 and 7d, at a similar weight.
It is interesting that your impression (formed from what you have read/been told) differs from Ben's. I am not saying either is wrong, I think it just highlights that there probably isn't much in it. It is worth noting that Ben said I would probably be happy with either 7d or M50.

how much is Ben charging you for this jacket?

"For the specs mentioned, and using any of the mentioned fabrics" he said he could do it for $300 shipped.
Which in my opinion sounds like a great deal!

[Macca81]

seeings thread-steals are being okayed... what do people think about down vests vs jackets? i do most of my walking in qld where a jacket would probably be overkill. hanging around camp at night time it can get a bit cold, but during the day is generally fine as is sleeping, so i am thinking about a vest for camp warmth and pillow duties. thoughts and/or recommendations?

I tend to be a very warm person, and so the idea of a vest obviously appeals to me. I have been tossing up between a down vest or jacket for some time, but i am starting to lean towards the jacket for the following reasons.

I work outdoors, and even in winter i am in shorts and t-shirt. When it gets cold enough for me to put something else on, i have the choice between a vest or a jacket, both the soft-shell windstopper style that seems to be so common these days. I opt for the vest 99.9% of the time. If i put on the jacket i tend to find that i overheat and just have to roll up the sleeves anyway, so why not just wear a vest huh?

BUT! I also have a synthetic puffy jacket that i take with me when i go on weekends away with scouts (its too bulky for hiking, hence why i am looking for down now). This jacket happens to have zip-off sleeves. So, what a fantastic thing! i have the best of both worlds, right!
When it is cold enough for me to put the jacket on, it is on as a jacket. If i need that thing on, having no sleeves means that even the slightest breeze just sucks the heat from my chest area. My abdominal region stays warm, but the area from the pits up just freezes! On a still night, the vest is great, but it doesnt take much for it to be feeling like i should just go back to the softshell jacket


Personally, i would prefer a short sleeved jacket, with sleeves to just above the elbows


(EVERY single time i typed 'jacket' in this post, i had to go back and type it again because i spelled it 'jecket'. Every Single Time...)

[ninjapuppet]

FYI, those brooks range alpinis are back in stock on half price for $130 again!

http://www.theclymb.com/brand-event/36019/show-product/55503?f=mi

I just bought a Rab Neutrino Endurance from backcountry.com with Mr Rebates+ my alpine club discount for $190 and I certainly cant complain. Looking forward to making comparisons of these 2 cosy things.

from specs, alpine anorak vs Rab neutrino:

$130 ......vs. .......$190
but retails $264 vs ...$300
7.5oz fill .... vs .... 8 oz fill
344g total weight... vs... 590g total weight (small)
15D pertex outer...vs..... 30D pertex quantum
and a few design differences like anorak vs jacket etc etc....

but for the record, you certainly cant go wrong for $130! kellys' base camp has the Rab neutrino endurance going for RRP $600! just shows you what sort of quality we're talking about here for mid weight down jackets.

[LTM]

Ninja, I would be interested in your views on how robust that 15D fabric would be for hanging around camp etc.

[ninjapuppet]

It hasnt been cold enough for me to use the 15D Anorak. Having damaged various other pieces of clothing at 20D, I would say you'd want to be very cautious about anything that can cause it to abrade & tear. I certainly wouldnt want to be climbing or scrambling in a 15D jacket, nor stand near a campfire. Any slight embers blowing from the wind could easily burn a hole through it.

I Damaged another 20D jacket when I was sitting on a log and it had a little branch sticking out. I guess I sat too close to it and when i twisted around, it snagged and caused a little tear. However something like the overland track where you're probally in the huts at the end of the day or sitting at the hut's chairs and tables, then no dramas there. Alpine snow camping should be fine too with no trees and branches to snag your thin material.

[dannnnn]

macpac is having a fairly decent sale, (as advertised on this forum) and it's worth a look!

http://www.macpac.com.au/shop/en_au/gea ... ckets-mens

i went in today and ended up buying a comet jacket.. it is toasty warm. not the lightest weight jacket i've ever seen, but great for the price. it packs down into a 2L stuff sack. i look forward to it keeping me warm around camp and making an excellent pillow

[blacksheep]

If small is important, check the nova

[Macca81]

:wink: If small is important, check the nova

Cam, what advantages do narrow baffle constructions have over larger baffles? For a lighter jacket, i would have thought that less baffles means less fabric and therefore less weight? So why was Scott so excited to see this jacket? Is there something about narrow baffles that has an obvious benefit that the extra weight is then offset by? I have noticed this trend in a few jackets of late, could you shed any light?

[blacksheep]

:wink: If small is important, check the nova

Cam, what advantages do narrow baffle constructions have over larger baffles? For a lighter jacket, i would have thought that less baffles means less fabric and therefore less weight? So why was Scott so excited to see this jacket? Is there something about narrow baffles that has an obvious benefit that the extra weight is then offset by? I have noticed this trend in a few jackets of late, could you shed any light?

The trend is less to do with narrow baffles as a look, but rather narrow baffles are a response to the trend of down jackets that use smaller quantities of higher loft down, so the narrow channels are needed to control the smaller quantities of fill. This all relates to the trend for lighter weight gear, often at the expense of insulation quality. Put simply, puffier is warmer, but read the above thread and you'll see the discussion is about weight, not warmth to many folks.
A jacket like a sundowner will be warmer than a nova. It simply uses more fill (sundowner 232grams of 600+ loft vs 133 gr of 800 loft). Do the math and you'll see that while the nova uses down that is 33% more efficient in terms of volume/weight ratio, there is only 60% of quantity used. So in this case the gains in loft power does not result in a warmer garment, but a lighter and more compact one. In fact the performance is also affected as more sew through points mean more points for direct heat loss. Don't get me wrong, the light weight/ high loft trend is good, but the products do not compare to some other options if actual CLO values are used as the measure, but excel if something more compact and versatile (ie: more usable in a layering system) is the goal.
Regarding fabric- 7d/8d/10d/15d....well, all very nice, but the hunger for them has to be tempered with some facts- in simple terms the denier is a guide to weight of fabric, but has a relationship with yarn size and consequently strength. A 30d nylon might weigh 40gsm, whereas a 8d (or similar) may weigh 25gsm. When a garment uses approx. 4m of fabric, the benefit (in terms of weight reduction) may be 60 grams. The trade-off is a durability...in some instances that is an acceptable trade off, sometimes it is not...It depends on what a consumers expectations are mostly..
Also a fabric like our reflex loft-pro (which is actually the same cloth branded by others a Pertex Endurance), add a coating which not only keeps the down drier, it reduces the rate at which warmed air exits the shell, so the jacket traps warmth more efficiently (your body works less hard to replace lost warmth).
Finally construction, as well as spacing of baffles and incidence of direct heat loss points, super high end jackets like our Equinox, use box walled baffles rather than sewn through. This adds more weight and bulk of course, but if viewed as an element of a sleeping system as well as a jacket can be offset by using with a lighter weight sleeping bag...
Anyways...that's a bit of creep from your question, I hope some of that was relevant..
cheers
Cam

[norts]

Is the Nova a replacement for the Twilight? If so why the change in name?
I have the Twilight , very happy with that.
Roger