Sleeping bag rating

[cosmic_couple22]

Hi all
I am wondering if anybody out there knows the fill/loft and rating information on a Mountain Designs elite pro Col sleeping bag. I think they were made around 2005? Can't find any old threads on the net. Off to North India second week of October to do some treking and my partner is a cold sleeper, so want to make sure our older bags are up to it. Nothing worse than having your fiancee cold and grumpy on the other side of the world.

All the guides i have read state the temperatures north of Leh and around Gongotri Glacier at that time of year as low as -13 so want to make sure I have all the right gear.

Thanks in advance.

Chester

[wayno]

contact mountain designs
compare it's relative warmth to another sleeping bag of a known temp rating to make an estimate of how it will rate.

[ewepootoo]

Hi, Not sure of ratings, a salesman at Rays Camping tied me up in knots with his confusing explanation of temperature ratings. Probably is no international standard and you would probably be safe just going with a well known brand all be it that it will probably be made in China. l have just bought a 100% goose down bag on ebay fron South Korea and it is rated by them down to -10C it weighs 2.2 kg's so plenty of geese turned up their toes to make it. Here is a link http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/251111394552 ... 012wt_1414 they sell bags rated down to -20C and are far cheaper than any other l found. The Koreans make good cars and steel and we all know from experience what rubbish comes out of China. Hope this is of some use to you. l bought a Paddy Pallin bag years ago for a weeks wage but l guess they just sell rubbish now. Steve

[Strider]

Hi, Not sure of ratings, a salesman at Rays Camping tied me up in knots with his confusing explanation of temperature ratings. Probably is no international standard and you would probably be safe just going with a well known brand all be it that it will probably be made in China. l have just bought a 100% goose down bag on ebay fron South Korea and it is rated by them down to -10C it weighs 2.2 kg's so plenty of geese turned up their toes to make it. Here is a link http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/251111394552 ... 012wt_1414 they sell bags rated down to -20C and are far cheaper than any other l found. The Koreans make good cars and steel and we all know from experience what rubbish comes out of China. Hope this is of some use to you. l bought a Paddy Pallin bag years ago for a weeks wage but l guess they just sell rubbish now. Steve

Paddy Pallin sell probably the two best sleeping bag brands around - One Planet (Aus) and Western Mountaineering (USA).

Alot of stuff out of China these days is also of excellent quality (Fire Maple stoves, Sanrenmu knives, numerous other items made under contract).

Personally, I would have spent a little extra and gone with a bag that was perhaps a little more trustworthy. Macpac offer some good low end options.

[wayno]

there is a european standard temperature rating for sleeping bags

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sleeping_b ... re_ratings

[blacksheep]

Hi, Not sure of ratings, a salesman at Rays Camping tied me up in knots with his confusing explanation of temperature ratings. Probably is no international standard and you would probably be safe just going with a well known brand all be it that it will probably be made in China. l have just bought a 100% goose down bag on ebay fron South Korea and it is rated by them down to -10C it weighs 2.2 kg's so plenty of geese turned up their toes to make it. Here is a link http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/251111394552 ... 012wt_1414 they sell bags rated down to -20C and are far cheaper than any other l found. The Koreans make good cars and steel and we all know from experience what rubbish comes out of China. Hope this is of some use to you. l bought a Paddy Pallin bag years ago for a weeks wage but l guess they just sell rubbish now. Steve

Paddy Pallin sell probably the two best sleeping bag brands around - One Planet (Aus) and Western Mountaineering (USA).

Alot of stuff out of China these days is also of excellent quality (Fire Maple stoves, Sanrenmu knives, numerous other items made under contract).

Personally, I would have spent a little extra and gone with a bag that was perhaps a little more trustworthy. Macpac offer some good low end options.

low end? we do fantastic high end bags mate... take a look at the specs

[wayno]

low end bags dont pack down anywhere near as small as high end bags for similar warmth ratings

[blacksheep]

Don't measure quality by pack size alone...all that demonstrates is how much material and fill is used...there is a lot more in a well designed bag that differentiated the good the bad and the ugly...

[Strider]

Hi, Not sure of ratings, a salesman at Rays Camping tied me up in knots with his confusing explanation of temperature ratings. Probably is no international standard and you would probably be safe just going with a well known brand all be it that it will probably be made in China. l have just bought a 100% goose down bag on ebay fron South Korea and it is rated by them down to -10C it weighs 2.2 kg's so plenty of geese turned up their toes to make it. Here is a link http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/251111394552 ... 012wt_1414 they sell bags rated down to -20C and are far cheaper than any other l found. The Koreans make good cars and steel and we all know from experience what rubbish comes out of China. Hope this is of some use to you. l bought a Paddy Pallin bag years ago for a weeks wage but l guess they just sell rubbish now. Steve

Paddy Pallin sell probably the two best sleeping bag brands around - One Planet (Aus) and Western Mountaineering (USA).

Alot of stuff out of China these days is also of excellent quality (Fire Maple stoves, Sanrenmu knives, numerous other items made under contract).

Personally, I would have spent a little extra and gone with a bag that was perhaps a little more trustworthy. Macpac offer some good low end options.

low end? we do fantastic high end bags mate... take a look at the specs

I know this Cam! What I should have said is that you offer products for all budgets

[wayno]

plenty of good sleeping bag brands around
exped,
marmot
big agnes
the north face
mountain hardwear
mountain equipment
RAB
sierra designs
mammut

take your pick.

[madmacca]

ewepootoo,

The european EN rating system for sleeping bags is a pretty good one, and although not compulsory, many reputable non-European manufacturers now often use it as a marketing tool.

Basically it has 3 points to each rating:
Comfort - the temperature down to which a typical woman will be comfortable at
Limit - the temperature down to which a typical man will be comfortable at
Extreme - you will have a very cold and uncomfortable night, but it will at least keep you alive and frostbite free

Of course, some people are warm sleepers, and some are cold sleepers, and there is no guarantee your fiance will be warm at the comfort rating, but is does provide a reliable means of comparing different bags.

Best ways of staying warm in a sleeping bag:
1. Keep it dry at all costs (including from sweating inside it)
2. Use a high R value mat/combination of mats
3. You lose 1/3 of your heat through your head, so wear a beanie/balaclava
4. Wear warm dry clothes to bed
5. Heat some water before going to bed, and create your own hot water bottle.

Mad

[cams]

Add to that eat a good dinner before bed. Your body needs fuel to keep itself warm.

[nq111]

ewepootoo,
Best ways of staying warm in a sleeping bag:
1. Keep it dry at all costs (including from sweating inside it)
2. Use a high R value mat/combination of mats
3. You lose 1/3 of your heat through your head, so wear a beanie/balaclava
4. Wear warm dry clothes to bed
5. Heat some water before going to bed, and create your own hot water bottle.

+1 on all of this and need for a good meal.

Except for Point 3. There seems to be some debate as to whether this figure (and it is recycled everywhere) was ever based on science and whilst the head is important - 1/3 of heat loss seems to be too high.

Maybe some members with professional or scientific experience might be able to confirm, refute or debate my understanding?

[wayno]

it would vary according to how long your hair is......, some figures are a lot higher, i'm not sure of the exact figure.

[Moondog55]

What no-body has told you is that the bag is probably warm enough for trekking.
Weight shouldn't be an issue if you are hiring porters to carry your bags for you, if you have arranged a guide that would be the guides job.
From memory all of that series were considered mountain bags with comfort ratings around that temperature.
Mattress will have a lot of bearing on that temperature rating as would sleeping in a tent etc

[Strider]

ewepootoo,
Best ways of staying warm in a sleeping bag:
1. Keep it dry at all costs (including from sweating inside it)
2. Use a high R value mat/combination of mats
3. You lose 1/3 of your heat through your head, so wear a beanie/balaclava
4. Wear warm dry clothes to bed
5. Heat some water before going to bed, and create your own hot water bottle.

+1 on all of this and need for a good meal.

Except for Point 3. There seems to be some debate as to whether this figure (and it is recycled everywhere) was ever based on science and whilst the head is important - 1/3 of heat loss seems to be too high.

Maybe some members with professional or scientific experience might be able to confirm, refute or debate my understanding?

12% rings a bell.

I have scientific experience too. With fish!

[nq111]

Yeah - i got 12% on the last sample of atlantic salmon i tested too

[wayno]

http://wildernessmedicinenewsletter.wor ... pothermia/

according to this article. 7% heat loss through the scalp, up to 10% if your scalp is sweating

theres also an issue of how much eat is lost brething in cold air, , i'm not sure what the figure is but bivy bags warmth in part comes from prewarming air you are breathing in which an boost the low temperature your sleeping bag can tolerate.

[Moondog55]

That 1/3 figure is, I think; for a person at rest. when working the muscle tissue produces most of the heat. Scientific or not I always take more than 2 layers for my head. I have a spare down parka hood that I have used on one occasion as well but that is far too warm to use for the parka in question ( any-one remember the old AlpSports Everest line)

[Wolfix]

Mountain Designs has only recently had its bags rated with the EN system so older rating info should be ignored. Older bags may have EN ratings but I highly doubt it. Pro Elite is MD high end gear but may not be rated as highly as it has been advertised. MD will probably come out with some revised bag designs to compete with Macpac, STS etc but for now they're not very warm and very bulky.

The EN ratings are usually presented as x-y degrees F or C. The first number is the comfort rating which is calculated for a woman sleeping comfortably. The second is the limit rating which is a man sleeping comfortably. Consider whether you're a warm bodied woman or cold bodied man before you rely on those ratings as gender appropriate.

[wayno]

md dont seem to list everything they sell online, you might find alternate brands if you're in their store, they do list one mammut bag online.

[Moondog55]

Maybe Blacksheep can help with part of my question. The EN ratings are standardised but at what humidity. There is a HUGE comfort difference between a dry 5C; a dry -5c and our usual minus 3C and 99% humidity. A bag rated for a Northern winter at -20C may not be warm enough down here in soggy conditions without experiment it is difficult to tell

[wayno]

http://www.trailspace.com/forums/gear-s ... 91375.html

The humidity is kept constant and ranges between 40 and 80 pc.

[Moondog55]

if the humidity varies then the tests look invalid.
it makes comparisons between sleeping bags, different makers and different labs difficult to compare.

[wayno]

also the link points out theres no consistency on what peoples energy output is. tests assume a person has a specific energy output. so the tests arent accurate for people who's energy output varies from the output value used in the tests. and it also argues the way they value the temperature over different parts of the body can vary from reality in that the temperature of hte extremities is less important than it is taken in hte tests as they dont have to maintain temperature for survival

[corvus]

Don't know about the science involved but I personally have found that wearing a Beanie to bed when cold camping (or even in huts) keeps me warmer
corvus

[cosmic_couple22]

Wow amazing how a thread can weave its way far from the op then someone just catches back on to it, thanks Moondog55 . You are right, these were meant to be MD's top alpine bag back in early 2002/4. We took these bags to do the Everest trek February 2010 coldest night was minus 4 (breezy old tea house) and thought I should have been warmer, Amanda used a blanket for extra warmth. So on reflection I am going to update our bags to something toasty as it could be easy to get caught out treking high passes in the North of India and have a longer colder stay (I can think of worse places to get stuck, Indian Himalayas nice )

So my next question is either a Sea to Summit APIII or a RAB Andes 800 very similar ratings etc, so who makes the better bag look forward to everyones input and all the extra information that is sure to be shared

Thanks all

Chester

[madmacca]

NQ - good point about the meal. So much part of my routine I completely forgot about it.

wayno,

Thanks for the article link. Like many others I had passed this figure on as blind faith.

I would only have ever defended the 1/3 figure on the basis on including the neck as well. (Major artery very close to the surface of the skin - key elements of a heat exchanger). The article seems to refer to loss through the scalp only.

One point of confusion in the article is that they say verbally that the proportion of heat loss through the head increases as the body restricts circulation (which seems logical), but then in the numbers presented seem to say it doesn't.

What really surprised me was the 55% loss figure through the head for hypothermic patients.

Mad

[Moondog55]

At rest the brain is the biggest user of energy and therefore blood flow to the brain remains high.
Personally I always include the neck area when I am thinking about the head, this is why a scarf or balaclava is always part of my cold weather kit.
What mattresses did you use in the tea house?
Were all the usual boxes ticked before sleeping? Meal, hydration, fatigue, and altitude has a large effect just like humidity Would a windproof cover give you better value than new bags

[wayno]

its not just about direct heat loss.
heat loss from the head can vary greatly especially when you go from being hot to cold
the skill is full of pores for blood vessels that run between the scalp and the brain, the direction of flow is one way and reversible according to brain temperature
if you're hot the blood will flow from the scalp to cool the brain, its one reason why your head sweats so much when you're hot , the brain can only cope with a five degree rise above normal temperature, whereas the rest of the body may heat up by ten degrees when it's hot and or exercising.
i dont know how long it takes to reverse but when you're cold the blood flows fro the brain to the skin in a more restricted fashion so its no longer receiving the cooled blood straight into the brain.... so you can see if you're hot and hit cold weather and don't have a hat on your cooling scalp may overcool the brain by transmitting colder blood directly to the brain if it doesnt stop the blood flow fast enough.