New to gas canister stoves - help please.

[Stew63]

I've always used a liquid fuel stove - MSR Dragonfly and now a Primus OmniFuel with either Jet A1 kerosene or Shellite fuel and they have worked brilliantly in the cold/snow. (-15C no problems) I thought I'd cross over and try a canister stove after reading many positive things here.

This weekend I went backcounty in the snow with my new Kovea Supalite attached to a 100gm Jetboil gas canister, I've used it a few times before (brilliant) but not in the snow/cold.
On Sunday morning I tried to light it and thing was utterly hopeless! It was -6C, nil wind but used a wind shield anyway. The canister was full and placed on a Trangia 25cm plastic 'disc' on top of a section of foam insulation pad which I'd cut to size. Only 1/3 of the burner lit and only barely lit at that - and that was on FULL open valve. I tried unscrewing and rescrewing the canister but still the same outcome - hopeless. I reverted to my trusty liquid fuel Primus Omnifuel stove using Shellite and no problems at all.

Later in the morning after the sun was up and the air was warmer I tried the Kovea again and it worked just fine? Ha? What am I doing wrong - many people here vouch that these canister stoves work well in the cold - but I can't seem to get the darn thing going!

[Strider]

Canister top stoves wont work below approximately 0 degrees. Not sure where you heard otherwise.

[corvus]

To work in very cold conditions gas canister stoves need to be "remote" with a heat exchanger and even then you may need to invert the canister and insulate it from the ground to get good results depending on the stove
corvus

[nq111]

You should be able to invert canister on the omnifuel - certainly can on my omnifuel lite. But then you may as well carry shelite - more fun

[Ent]

Hi

Liquid gas when cold starts to fail to convert from a liquid to a gaseous state. Sit on top stoves rely on this process and start to fail at five degrees or colder. Some gas mixtures are better at performing at colder temperatures but many of the "good" mixtures are hard to get. Even with the best ones once below zero problems will come. The main one is the "good" gas gets used and the performance with part full cylinders drops off.

As the liquid gas expands it absorbs heat so the cylinder gets colder. This results in a declining cycle of increasing the gas flow resulting in colder cylinders.

Remote gas stoves often have pre-heaters that take the liquid gas and warm it into the gaseous state. Exactly the same thing that most liquid stoves do. Also you can invert the gas canister which for all practical purposes turns your gas stove onto a liquid fuel stove. Big warning on inverting cylinders. Most manufacturers have mile long disclaimers on how "dangerous" this practice can be. A few stoves are designed for inverting the canister so no issue there.

One trick is to carry the cylinder on your body and sleep with it in your bag. Or use a gas stove that can invert the cylinder or keel old faithful for high and cold trips.

Cheers

[sthughes]

And in the cold a 100g canister is worse than the bigger ones.

I have a Supalite and just put the canister in my sleeping bag with me (or pocket) a while before I get up so it warms up and will work ok. But if it's going to be cold I usually just carry a remote canister stove with a preheat mechanism so I can invert the canister and life is good

[Kinsayder]

I second the idea of popping it in the sleeping bag. If you do forget, however, you can warm it up by putting it between your legs or under your arm for a while. It still might be a bit spluttery though.

[tele-whippet]

MSR Reactors work well in temps below zero.
They're expensive but great.

[South_Aussie_Hiker]

I also sleep with the cannister in my bag if temps are low or if I can't get good quality iso-butane mix.

Have used this successfully to get 30 mins cooking out of a "dead" cannister the night before.

You should also remember that as the gas gets used the cannister will cool, exacerbating the problem.

The old blue genuine Kovea cannisters were by far the best, never had any issues down to 0 degrees, but can't get them in Aus any more. Elemental are meant to be rebadged Kovea (Elemental are the distributors of Kovea stoves/gas in Australia), but haven't tried them yet.

On the Overland this year, all I could get was one coleman and one other brand. The Coleman was pathetic. Only worked with temps above 10 degrees, or in the morning after being in my bag all night.

[Orion]

And in the cold a 100g canister is worse than the bigger ones.

Why?

[sthughes]

On the Overland this year, all I could get was one coleman and one other brand. The Coleman was pathetic. Only worked with temps above 10 degrees, or in the morning after being in my bag all night.

Yep, Coleman gas is really only good for summer I have found. From memory it only uses normal n-butane instead of iso-butane, I think.

And in the cold a 100g canister is worse than the bigger ones.

Why?

Can't recall the specifics but has to do with the evaporative surface area of the liquid in the canister, the fact the whole thing cools faster when in use (due to the smaller mass) and on top of that as you will be mostly burning off the propane first the fact it has less than half as much to begin with means the percentage mixture of propane to butane drops much more quickly. etc. etc. But they are much easier to stick in your pocket/sleeping bag so in my eyes that offsets the drawbacks.

[Franco]

I have used the Elemental canister on snow and not upside down.
(cheap China made burner)
With one stove last year I could not use the canister upside down in spite of the pre-heat tube however it worked sitting on snow the right way up.
(Optimus canisters from memory)
This year with another stove I could use that either way but had no need to turn it anyway.
It is an Isobutane/propane mix so that should work down to about -5c but so should the Jet Boil branded one.
One trick with gas stoves below zero is the same as melting snow, have some water to start with...
So just sit the cartridge in some water, that will be over 0 degree and therefore will warm it up.
To clarify...
I mean any WATER as in liquid stuff not WARM water...

If you need to melt snow I would suggest a remote stove for stability and ease of use.
( I keep the canister close enough to the burner to pick up some heat but not too much. However don't do that because ....)
In this photo :

the first on the left is for mild weather, the one in the center works but can't take a liquid feed (canister upside down) the one on the right works (for me)

to add..
if you do neet to cook and melt snow for more than one person , then white gas is generally better.

Franco

[Strider]

And in the cold a 100g canister is worse than the bigger ones.

Why?

I would suspect because they have a greater surface area to volume ratio.

[Stew63]

Thanks for all the feedback guys. I must have either misunderstood or was confused after previous discussions here in the past about modern gas canister use in the cold. (I believe someone on here said they tested their canister stove by putting the canister in the freezer overnight and after taking it out it then it started like a treat!) I really don't want to dick around with putting canisters in 'warm' water or in sleeping bags, preheating, inverting etc. etc. I will stick with my simple, trusty liquid fuel Primus OmniFuel (Jet A1/Shellite) as it's ALWAYS dependable and leave the canister stove for the kids to use in warmer weather.

[corvus]

Stew63 no real need to faff about you just need to use the right Stove and know how to however if you are happy to put up with the smell of(Jet A1/Shellite)so be it, many of us "kids" down here in Tasmania use Gas Canisters all seasons and gees some still use Metho!!
corvus

[Franco]

Maybe there is some Metho to the madness...

[Mark F]

One of the byproducts of ingesting methyl alcohol?

[corvus]

I have used the Elemental canister on snow and not upside down.
(cheap China made burner)
With one stove last year I could not use the canister upside down in spite of the pre-heat tube however it worked sitting on snow the right way up.
(Optimus canisters from memory)
This year with another stove I could use that either way but had no need to turn it anyway.
It is an Isobutane/propane mix so that should work down to about -5c but so should the Jet Boil branded one.
One trick with gas stoves below zero is the same as melting snow, have some water to start with...
So just sit the cartridge in some water, that will be over 0 degree and therefore will warm it up.
To clarify...
I mean any WATER as in liquid stuff not WARM water...

If you need to melt snow I would suggest a remote stove for stability and ease of use.
( I keep the canister close enough to the burner to pick up some heat but not too much. However don't do that because ....)
In this photo :

the first on the left is for mild weather, the one in the center works but can't take a liquid feed (canister upside down) the one on the right works (for me)

to add..
if you do neet to cook and melt snow for more than one person , then white gas is generally better.

Franco

Must be a batch thing Franco as my cheap BL100-B5 (your center one) will accept and work with an inverted canister (nice stove for my collection not real use) but if cash strapped this would do the job for occasional use
corvus

[Orion]

Can't recall the specifics but has to do with the evaporative surface area of the liquid in the canister, the fact the whole thing cools faster when in use (due to the smaller mass) and on top of that as you will be mostly burning off the propane first the fact it has less than half as much to begin with means the percentage mixture of propane to butane drops much more quickly. etc. etc. But they are much easier to stick in your pocket/sleeping bag so in my eyes that offsets the drawbacks.

Evaporative surface area would matter if the fuel was merely evaporating. But the fuel boils when you open the valve. The rate of gas production is a function of the amount of heat energy that is transfered, either passively (on a warm morning) or actively (by redirecting heat from the flame somehow). It it true that a smaller canister will passively cool faster. But if that's the situation then a larger one will only buy you a little time before your stove stops working. On the flip side a smaller canister can be warmed more quickly.

Your comment about the propane concentration isn't right. The volume of fuel isn't a factor in the rate of fractionation. If only we could distill to a higher percentage just by using a smaller still!

It may be that smaller canisters put you at some disadvantage in the cold, I'm not sure. But none of those explanations are compelling. I wouldn't hesitate to use a 100g canister (of isobutane based fuel) in the winter except that when melting snow and cooking in the cold it seems I always need more than that.

[Orion]

Canister top stoves wont work below approximately 0 degrees. Not sure where you heard otherwise.

To work in very cold conditions gas canister stoves need to be "remote" with a heat exchanger and even then you may need to invert the canister and insulate it from the ground to get good results depending on the stove
corvus

I have melted a lot of snow with a top mount stove at -10°C.

But I have also heard from many people that they could not do it. So it doesn't surprise me that the OP had trouble. It's probably a question of technique.

[Franco]

Corvus
My BL100 did work with the canister inverted at home, several tests , and then for a few boils on snow but then it started to splatter and would turn off. However I was able to use it with the canister the right way up just by having it close enough to get some heat from the flame ( if you can keep your hand on it it isn't too hot...)

As for gas use below zero it depends both on the canister mix as well as the model of the stove ( yes, not the brand nor the country of origin...)
Franco

[Solohike74]

Do not put the canister directly on the snow. Use closed cell foam or other material. If canister is touching the snow, you'll soon be cactus.