Mid-sized pack - Mungo or WBA?

[nickthetasmaniac]

Hi people Apologies in advance for another silly ¨what should I buy¨question...

The situation: I´ve been using a OP McMillan for the last 10 months (and 2000km!) and I am absolutely sold on the OP ethos. However, the one issue I´ve had is that the McMillan is just too big - I need the size for work (guiding) but for 90% of my private use I neither need or want to be carrying 90lt...

So, I´ve been looking at a smaller pack that I can use on shorter on and off-track trips at home (up to 5 days) and also extended backpacking in Asia and Europe (planning either the Silk Road or India/Nepal/Pakistan for winter 2013). Recently I´ve started to get into some more demanding routes (Eastern Arthurs and Du Cane traverse last summer), so simplicity and durability are key features. I think 60lt would be about the right size, and I´m also very keen on the idea of having one type of harness on all my packs, so the OP Mungo and WBA with a long Exact Fit harness are top of my list (feel free to suggest other brands but you´ll have to be pretty convincing )

The pros of each as I see it...

Mungo - tougher
WBA - lighter, more streamlined design (personal preference), compatible with OP Daypacks.

Basically, I prefer the WBA but I´m concerned about the lighter canvas for Tasmanian off-track conditions and the wear and tear of extended backpacking...

Thoughts from those with experience?

[ILUVSWTAS]

I've had a SHadow, and a Mungo, I still have the Mungo... not the Shadow. I've seen a WMA rip on it's first trip.. if you do off track walking, stay away from the lighter fabric Nick. You can also carry much heavier weights in the Mungo.

[stepbystep]

The Mungo is tougher than the WBA, but it is still a single skin canvas pack and the "new and improved" model seems less robust than the older version such as the one ILUV and other mates have.

I have holed mine on 2 separate trips without any great rough 'n tumble involved. I saw one for sale on here described as bombproof which is of course utter rubbish. I really wanted to pull him up for misleading advertising but derailing someones sale seemed a bit rough. For serious offtrack the base sections of the pack should be a double skin canvas.

The Mungo however is a great size and fit and I use mine whenever possible. Needless to say however it will not be coming on my big off track trip this year.

[ILUVSWTAS]

The Mungo is tougher than the WBA, but it is still a single skin canvas pack and the "new and improved" model seems less robust than the older version such as the one ILUV and other mates have.

I have holed mine on 2 separate trips without any great rough 'n tumble involved. I saw one for sale on here described as bombproof which is of course utter rubbish. I really wanted to pull him up for misleading advertising but derailing someones sale seemed a bit rough. For serious offtrack the base sections of the pack should be a double skin canvas.

The Mungo however is a great size and fit and I use mine whenever possible. Needless to say however it will not be coming on my big off track trip this year.

Such a shame OP changed their design. Mine will be coming with me on said trip.

[MJD]

Wouldn't recommend a WBA if you're going off track. Very disappointed in mine. Holed on the first trip. More holes on the second trip. Currently dumped in the garage, which is a half way house for items on the way to the tip (Anyone need spare parts?). Still have a Shadow that predates it that I still use - apart from the mesh pockets disappearing on contact with rock this pack has lasted really well and been on some tough trips. It is black in colour and the material seems heavier. Unfortunately the new Shadows are made from the same 200 gsm canvas as the WBAs so I've looked elsewhere. Currently using a Mountain Designs Main Range for the hard walks. I have to say that this pack is tough!

[nickthetasmaniac]

Thanks for the feedback everyone. WBA is off the list and I think I´ll just head into the shop when I get back to Oz and check out the Mungo build quality for myself

[ILUVSWTAS]

No worries NIck, Sadly the newer Mungos are made of a lesser quality. Unless you can get hold of an older one or somehow OP change their current policy, i'd look at a different brand altogether as OP seems to be going the way of many producres... IE CRAP!!!!

[nickthetasmaniac]

We'll see I guess. My McMillan is my first experience with OP (current model as of Feb this year - I think it's slightly revised from last years model) and I've been absolutely stoked with the build quality - way beyond my previous big packs from Osprey and Aarn (Argon and Load Limo). Expectations are high...

I'm pretty interested to hear opinions from some other users too... Fully respect the experience of SWTAS and Stepbystep but walking together tends to breed similar opinions

[ILUVSWTAS]

We'll see I guess. My McMillan is my first experience with OP (current model as of Feb this year - I think it's slightly revised from last years model) and I've been absolutely stoked with the build quality - way beyond my previous big packs from Osprey and Aarn (Argon and Load Limo). Expectations are high...

I'm pretty interested to hear opinions from some other users too... Fully respect the experience of SWTAS and Stepbystep but walking together tends to breed similar opinions

hahah yeh fair call... Besides MJD's ans SBS's, there were 2 guys on our Eldons trip that had a brand new Mungo, and a brand new StyxII. Both were ruined.

[Mountain Rocket]

The Mungo is tougher than the WBA, but it is still a single skin canvas pack and the "new and improved" model seems less robust than the older version such as the one ILUV and other mates have.

No worries NIck, Sadly the newer Mungos are made of a lesser quality. Unless you can get hold of an older one or somehow OP change their current policy, i'd look at a different brand altogether as OP seems to be going the way of many producres... IE CRAP!!!!

I have seen many versions of the Mungo and besides the colouring and more harness options, as far as I can see the design has not changed.
In my opinion these fleeting, generalised comments (based on one observation) are generally unfounded, and as a result unhelpful.

Oh and as far as changing policies goes, their warranty is the same as it has been for as long as I can remember (see: http://www.oneplanet.com.au/care-and-us ... ranty.html). You can speculate on changes to manufacturing all you want, but if One Planet is still prepared to stand by their product with a lifetime warranty - that says a lot to me.

I am going to email One Planet to see if clarify this and will update the thread here when I hear back.

Now to address the original question. In my opinion the Mungo is a far more efficient pack than the WBA for off-track walking in Tassie. Sure it is an extra ~500g, but it uses 390gsm as opposed to 200gsm canvas. I am all for lightweight materials but I am unconvinced by 200gsm canvas and much prefer dyneema in similar applications. Personally I use a hybrid cuben fiber/polyester pack and I can not see myself going back to traditional canvas any time soon. The option to attach a daypack to the WBA is useful, but so are the longitudinal compression straps of the Mungo. To me it is all preference.

You seem to have experience with One Planet packs. I suggest you go with that rather than some fleeting comments of a few members on a forum. It seems to be a hip thing to bash One Planet around these parts recently, but when you get to the bottom of it they tend to be unfounded. Hell I could be wrong and One Planet after all these years have lost their mojo and started designing and manufacturing dud products. Who knows? Personally I am yet to be convinced.

[nickthetasmaniac]

Am I right in understanding that the Mungo and McMillan use the same canvas?

[stepbystep]

The Mungo is tougher than the WBA, but it is still a single skin canvas pack and the "new and improved" model seems less robust than the older version such as the one ILUV and other mates have.

No worries NIck, Sadly the newer Mungos are made of a lesser quality. Unless you can get hold of an older one or somehow OP change their current policy, i'd look at a different brand altogether as OP seems to be going the way of many producres... IE CRAP!!!!

I have seen many versions of the Mungo and besides the colouring and more harness options, as far as I can see the design has not changed.
In my opinion these fleeting, generalised comments (based on one observation) are generally unfounded, and as a result unhelpful.

Oh and as far as changing policies goes, their warranty is the same as it has been for as long as I can remember (see: http://www.oneplanet.com.au/care-and-us ... ranty.html). You can speculate on changes to manufacturing all you want, but if One Planet is still prepared to stand by their product with a lifetime warranty - that says a lot to me.

I am going to email One Planet to see if clarify this and will update the thread here when I hear back.

Now to address the original question. In my opinion the Mungo is a far more efficient pack than the WBA for off-track walking in Tassie. Sure it is an extra ~500g, but it uses 390gsm as opposed to 200gsm canvas. I am all for lightweight materials but I am unconvinced by 200gsm canvas and much prefer dyneema in similar applications. Personally I use a hybrid cuben fiber/polyester pack and I can not see myself going back to traditional canvas any time soon. The option to attach a daypack to the WBA is useful, but so are the longitudinal compression straps of the Mungo. To me it is all preference.

You seem to have experience with One Planet packs. I suggest you go with that rather than some fleeting comments of a few members on a forum. It seems to be a hip thing to bash One Planet around these parts recently, but when you get to the bottom of it they tend to be unfounded. Hell I could be wrong and One Planet after all these years have lost their mojo and started designing and manufacturing dud products. Who knows? Personally I am yet to be convinced.

Look closer Robert. The buckle system has changed and the canvas on the newer ones feel different.

One Planet gets plenty of love on the forum, some balance is required. I was both disappointed with my product and my after sales service. Others have had the opposite experience.

As I said they are a great pack just not suited to serious off track. Nick asked for user experiences and we gave them.
There is a big difference between an off track meander through the Central Plateau and an Eldons Traverse and whereas the Mungo may suit the former it will not suit the latter. Their is evidence of this from others, mine was trashed on the Pelion Traverse. This is of course why I made the observations on a reinforced 2 skin heavy duty canvas or Nylon being more suited to off track walking. I learned the hard way unfortunately.

Anyway good luck Nick let us know what you get and how it works for you.

[sthughes]

Am I right in understanding that the Mungo and McMillan use the same canvas?

Yes.

A Stiletto is always a tougher option.

[frenchy_84]

In my opinion these fleeting, generalised comments (based on one observation) are generally unfounded, and as a result unhelpful.
.

Two users are able to give 4 examples of OP packs that have become damaged after a short period of ownership, and that is "fleeting, generalised comments (based on one observation) are generally unfounded". So in reality the OP packs suffered no damage at all and the posters made it up just so they could attack OP...

[Ent]

Hi Nic

The McMillan is one tough pack and my favourite winter pack. I have the original Mungo that came second hand from Chris Baxter (stuffed if I can tell much difference to the newer model in any quality change) and it is a great pack but canvas versus abrasive rock and the abrasive rock wins. An "armoured" McMillan or Stilletto is the go for rough areas. I gave my Styx II hell on the WA and yes I holed it but what can you expect with 110 kilograms of me and 27 kilograms of pack sliding down steep rocky cliffs. I had all my attention focused on preserving me, not my pack. Some perspective is required on how tough a pack needs to be. Also I had broken ribs three weeks before having departed from my mountain bike at Montezuma Falls. One Planet repair service is excellent as both the Mungo and Styx II have gone back for minor repairs. I have seen other brands of packs completely destruct.

Found that the user is a key feature to pack damage. I now pack hard items surrounded by soft ones and this removes the wear point when in contact with rock. Not so fussy with the McMillan but bit protective with the Shadow, Mungo and Styx II now. To me the WBA is a strange beast. Light weight materials mated to a heavy lift harness. The Shadow, Mungo, or Stiletto make more sense to me. The Stiletto is still a biggish pack but its clean lines means that you do not catch the rear pocket as what happens with McMillan and Styx II. Might be worthwhile looking at a smaller fifty litre pack given gear like the NeoAir but I just do not seem to get my stuff to fit yet others appear to have no problem.

I have the newer Shadow that I brought second hand from this site and it is great to the claim load level of 20 kilograms. I brought the medium which is a fraction too short so now have just arrived in my office is a brand new Pacific Blue Shadow The Shadow is adequate for most peoples walking but it is not a pack to pack haul nor slide down rocky cliffs with and if your love is off track then would not go for it. Actually a lighter pack is less inclined to be put in a damaging situation as a friend on the WA proved. He could dodge and weave and hand his lighter pack down when we pack hauled. His was a Golite pack.

I have had a near brush with major back surgery and so ultra fussy with harness design. The One Planet pack harness system rocks for me but then I have met other that have not found this. If a harness does not suit you then no amount of "ghee it is great" from others matters.

The best pack for you in the OP range is the Stiletto. Simple clean lines with adequate armouring and harness system that you have found excellent. Just make sure you get the right fitting as there are a few sizes. A poor fitted pack is hell no matter how good the quality it is.

As for other brands, well the list never ends. And endless flame wars can be fought on the canvas versus other materials.

Cheers

[ILUVSWTAS]

Am I right in understanding that the Mungo and McMillan use the same canvas?

Yes.

I thought the Mcmillan was slightly heavier fabric?

[Mountain Rocket]

I thought the Mcmillan was slightly heavier fabric?

They both use a 390gsm waterloc canvas. http://www.oneplanet.com.au/rucksacks-f ... anvas.html

[stepbystep]

Am I right in understanding that the Mungo and McMillan use the same canvas?

Yes.

I thought the Mcmillan was slightly heavier fabric?

It's the double layer around the bum of the pack that gives it the strength the Mungo lacks. The Mungo is left half as strong where it counts, pretty simple really, don't trust that new cavas either or perhaps mine was from a bad batch.

[doogs]

On our Eldons traverse towards the end of last year 2 new Mungos were holed in the bottom. My 15 year old Karrimor which I took survived the trip a bit better, that was thanks to the double layer of fabric around it's base as the outer had a couple of small tears from climbing over wet dolerite. I have heard great thing about OP in the past but this single layer of fabric seems to be a bit of a worry for off track walking where they are often scraped on the bottom when clambering over dolerite. As mentioned before it really depends on what you classify as off track walking!!

[ILUVSWTAS]

Yes doogs, dont forget the StyxII. Also brand new....

and yes, there's off track walking, and then there's off track walking in Tas!!

And thanks SBS, I was pretty sure the Mcmillan had a tougher bit on it somewhere...

[nickthetasmaniac]

Thanks again for everyones help. I was puzzled by the comments about the Mungo being fragile, given that it uses the same weight canvas as my McMillan (I definitely wouldn't want heavier), but after what people have said about the single-ply bottom I think I geddit

With that in mind I think I'll check out the Stiletto when I get home (thanks for the suggestion Ent). It's slightly larger than I'd intended (but still a decent size for medium length trips) but toughness is top of the tree for Things It Must Do and it seems to tick that box...

[sthughes]

The actual bottom of the pack has heavy cordura reinforcing I believe. This is the main area where there is a problem isn't it? (and also the red area on the back to a lesser extent?):

Capture.JPG (23.6 KiB) Viewed 8959 times

It's a shame OP don't do a tough version of the Shadow, that would be ideal in my opinion.

[forest]

Personally I use a hybrid cuben fiber/polyester pack and I can not see myself going back to traditional canvas any time soon.

Sorry, Thread Drift.....

Hi Robert, I'm guessing this is the 2.92 oz/sqyd Cuben hybrid stuff like zpacks uses now ??

Very interested in hearing your thoughts on the durability of the stuff. I'm eyeing off that Arc Blast for sure....

[Mountain Rocket]

Look closer Robert. The buckle system has changed and the canvas on the newer ones feel different.

Okay, yes there is a new buckle. The fundamental design remains the same, as does the materials used. That was my point. As far as canvas feeling different, I dare say that is the difference between new and used/weather canvas. I could be wrong though.

One Planet gets plenty of love on the forum, some balance is required. I was both disappointed with my product and my after sales service. Others have had the opposite experience.

Oh I am all for balance, do not get me wrong. What I have an issue with is people jumping on a bandwagon irrespective of their own experiences (be that none or many). I remember your thread quite clearly and I agree that your issues were legitimate and the service in your case was lacking, however I consider your case more of an exception than normality. You said it yourself, others have the opposite opinion of One Planet's service.

As I said they [Mungo] are a great pack just not suited to serious off track.

Perhaps true. Personally I trust my hybrid cuben fiber pack for off-track walking, many would not. I do however acknowledge that my pack is not designed to stand up to heavy abrasion, as the 'fabric' used is a laminate and not woven. This is factored into my definition and style of off-track walking. My point is, when entering discussions such as this it is important to consider perspective.

To me this is primarily based on three things:
1) What the product is designed to do.
2) What you expect the product to do.
3) How you personally use the product.

Obviously these three factors can differ between individuals for the same product. This can result in a vast differences in peoples opinions of packs, making it hard to read comments side by side as the perspective behind them can be totally unique.

Two users are able to give 4 examples of OP packs that have become damaged after a short period of ownership, and that is "fleeting, generalised comments (based on one observation) are generally unfounded". So in reality the OP packs suffered no damage at all and the posters made it up just so they could attack OP...

I think you have either misunderstood/misinterpreted my comment. I will try and clarify but I have had a few wines so forgive me.
When I mentioned fleeting and generalised comments, I was specifically addressing those directed at the Mungo. I realise stepbystep has had first hand experience with a Mungo suffering damage and I am not in any way trying to discredit his experiences (nor that of ILUVSWTAS), however comments such as 'the "new and improved" model seems less robust than the older version' and 'sadly the newer Mungos are made of a lesser quality.' are what I find unhelpful.

Why you might ask? Mostly because they fail to detail the 'design changes' and yet say the newer ones are, well, crap. I am happy to be proven wrong in this case. I also want to stress that I am not saying the comments by stepbystep and/or ILUVSWTAS is necessarily wrong. I merely took 'offence' to the way they were phrased and delivered.

Some perspective is required on how tough a pack needs to be. [...] One Planet repair service is excellent as both the Mungo and Styx II have gone back for minor repairs. I have seen other brands of packs completely destruct.

I found that the user is a key feature to pack damage. I now pack hard items surrounded by soft ones and this removes the wear point when in contact with rock. Not so fussy with the McMillan but bit protective with the Shadow, Mungo and Styx II now.

[...] The One Planet pack harness system rocks for me but then I have met other that have not found this. If a harness does not suit you then no amount of "ghee it is great" from others matters.

Totally agree with all of this.

The actual bottom of the pack has heavy cordura reinforcing I believe. This is the main area where there is a problem isn't it? (and also the red area on the back to a lesser extent?):

Capture.JPG

That is the area where I have seen posters develop holes after coming up against prolonged exposure to dolerite and other rough rocks. So although the canvas in the Mungo is the same as the other One Planet packs (excluding those that use 200gsm canvas), the issue is clearly that the placement of the cordura bottom/reinforcing is in different between models. This results in different durability in those sections.

I'm guessing this is the 2.92 oz/sqyd Cuben hybrid stuff like zpacks uses now ??

Very interested in hearing your thoughts on the durability of the stuff. I'm eyeing off that Arc Blast for sure....

Seeing as I have mentioned my pack in two of my three comments here I will quickly answer this. I actually have a HMG (Hyperlite Mountain Gear) Porter pack. I have only used it a few times out in the field but my HMG Metro pack has been getting nearly daily use around town. All I will say at this stage is so far, so good. I still do not consider the fabric to be particularly abrasion resistant (being a laminate) but it certainly stands up to walking off-track through thick and prickly scrub.

This is my first time with the hybrid cuben fiber material so I am still getting used to it. However, I would not trust a traditional cuben fiber pack and the added nylon seems to go a long way (consider I have never seen a normal cuben pack). In general the Porter still has a few things about it that make it less than perfect for me (roll top closure, white cuben, potentially shoulder straps but time will tell) but so far I am extremely pleased with it. I certainly plan to play around with this hybrid cuben a bit more and considering how much of a gram junkie I know that you are, I would certainly recommend checking this stuff out.


Finally to nickthetasmaniac, you give me the impression that you are a smart guy and can take advice for what it is.
So here is my advice, trust yourself to make the right decision.

[Strider]

my HMG Metro pack has been getting nearly daily use around town.

Was it you I saw cycling up Harrington St a couple of weeks ago?

[Mountain Rocket]

Was it you I saw cycling up Harrington St a couple of weeks ago?

Haha yep that was likely me! Probably dying up the hills.

[MJD]

Wouldn't recommend a WBA if you're going off track. Very disappointed in mine. Holed on the first trip. More holes on the second trip. ....

Oh and as far as changing policies goes, their warranty is the same as it has been for as long as I can remember (see: http://www.oneplanet.com.au/care-and-us ... ranty.html)....

Can't see how the warranty would help me. The WBA just isn't up to off track walking IMHO. On the other hand I have been impressed by my old Shadow (despite losing the mesh pockets in very quick time). I guess that I expected the WBA to be as good or almost as good. It's not, the lighter canvas is not a good choice for a lot of the walks that I do. It would be fine for walking on tracks or trails but don't bother with scrambling on rock or lots of scrub. Yes, the harness is very comfortable. However, the cost is high. And, if you are going to look at a heavier pack then other brands are worth considering.

[Mountain Rocket]

Can't see how the warranty would help me.

Me neither. Using gear that is appropriate for the job (in a manner that is appropriate for the gear) is the only thing that will help you.
The WBA is described on the One Planet website as having 'reasonable scrub resistance'. That does not equate to off-track walking in my mind.

[Ent]

I have the Shadow in the light canvas used in the WBA as well and I would class it capable of a Reynolds Falls walk no problem and on the OLT track routes but consider it a bit ambitious for off track wandering or areas where abrasion against rocks is to be reasonably expected such as the Western Athurs unless you are gentle on your gear. At the same time I would not expect the hole to extend much. Holing a pack is annoying but having that hole start a major rip is something else.

The Mungo and Styx II I am pretty happy to take them most places except where rock scrambling and sliding is required. So off track in scrub would not worry me too much but then I am not a great scrub hound so a couple of hours pulls me up. Abrasive rocks is death to a pack unless heavily armored. The damage on the Western Arthurs was minor and just annoying for the Styx II.

The McMillan and Stiletto are my pack of choice for anywhere else I would care to venture. The smaller brother the Vertex is another one but I could not get my gear to fit in that small size. I personally do not have a Stiletto but a friend has one and it is untroubled. The McMillan I have had for four or more years is grubby but otherwise undamaged. I have crashed down a few rocky slopes and never had an issue but I might have been just lucky. Others with that pack in our group have not had an issue except for a wayward rodent.

The Cannibal Run used the Osprey packs and from all accounts they performed well so there is a lighter option.

There might be opening for OP to produce a 60 litre mini Stiletto but you are looking at 2.7 kilograms for the medium Stiletto from memory so hardly worth the weight saved. The Mungo in the long comes in at 2.2 kilograms. For half a kilogram you get a much tougher pack. The Mungo I believe is designed for school use so meant to be a simple design capable of handling what a 14-17 year old would dish out and what you would dish out to a 14-17 year old.

A few weeks back we took a direct line from Lake Mytle to Moses Creek Track and the steep drop down in snow did not worry the Styx II nor my mates MacPac but my friends Lowe Alpine Dyneena pack has a hole from a fight with a rock. You are looking at near enough three kilogram packs against at 1.2 kilogram one so not unexpected. The McMillan is close enough to three and half kilograms so do the sums.

Personally I consider holing any items as either bad luck or being overly ambitious expecting it to hold up for its weight. But failed stitching or broken harness is poor pack design or quality. Rain gear as with packs is the same issue. My PP Vista jacket appears near indestructible but is the heaviest of my jackets. I love my Montane Air but even lighter weight pack use is pushing the friendship with that jacket.

Horses for courses but the trouble is everyone is pushing the envelope on weight saving and some are just more gentle on their gear than others so can say "brand X model Y" is great when other will find that item a disaster. There is a reason why One Planet produce a large range of packs and that is so we can chose the appropriate pack for the use. If I was doing the OLT then sure a WBA is the go but I would not venture near the WAs with one.

Cheers

[Mountain Rocket]

Totally wrong and subsequently retracted.