How heavy is stupid heavy

[wildernesswanderer]

Seems to me most here seems to count every last gram. Now I know we don't want to walk around with 30kg on our backs but when do think a pack is to heavy. My pack weight 2.1kg, my sleeping bag 1.3kg and the tents I'm looking at weighs in close to 3-4kg depending on which one I get. So my Big 4 base weight will be 6-7kg. I'm hoping to end up around the 16-18kg mark with my camera as well. I guess reading this though some people would die thinking about carrying that weight hence how much is to much weight... Just curious

[Dale]

For me it's around 30% of my body weight which is about 18kg. It's definitely good to know so you can plan for long unsupported hikes, water hauling or activities needing extra gear - alpine, packrafting etc...

[Franco]

There was a thread at BPL where someone quoted a study where the suggested maximum (regular use) weight was the weight you can hold standing one one leg within 20% less of the time you can without.
so if I understood the idea correctly , if you can stand on one leg for 3 minutes withou a pack you should be able to stand on one leg with your full pack for at least 2:20 .
I did that and without trying too hard I can do 16 kg (20% of my weight) with a standard pack as well as the Aarn however I do have to lean forward with the non Aarn indicating that I am spending less energy with the Aarn.
Franco
BTW, of course I can walk with 25 kg, but that is something I would do only if I really had to not by choice.
Do keep in mind that I almost never take pills , the idea of carrying big loads and popping pain killers does not appeal to me at all.

[sthughes]

I think it all depends how much you do to a large extent. If you walk regularly with 25kg it is easy, but if you usually carry 15kg, a 25kg pack feels way too heavy. 30% of my body weight would be 30kg - ouch no way! Also depends on the person, the pack fit/harness and the track you are on, for me 27kg on the Overland track was easy, but the same on a harder track (or off track) would have been awful.

[phan_TOM]

There was a thread at BPL where someone quoted a study where the suggested maximum (regular use) weight was the weight you can hold standing one one leg within 20% less of the time you can without.
so if I understood the idea correctly , if you can stand on one leg for 3 minutes withou a pack you should be able to stand on one leg with your full pack for at least 2:20 .

Clears up one thing Franco, that people over at BPL have way too much time on their hands... I never stop being amused by the things some people come up with

As to the OP, I guess it depends on the individual, I carry about 18kg (if I take my camera gear) and find that is a fairly manageable load. It gets a bit trickier when climbing over or under or through scrub but generally I'm pretty happy with my pack weight. No doubt some people would struggle with that much weight and others, like guides in the mountains chaperoning clients or doing food drops, can run up mountains all day long with 40kg and smile all the way.

[Tony]

To me stupid heavy is carrying 1 gram more than you have to.

Tony

[Miyata610]

..... others, like guides in the mountains chaperoning clients or doing food drops, can run up mountains all day long with 40kg and smile all the way.

LOL. I wish!

[Moondog55]

Not being able to stand up without help.
Or a combat infantry load-up

[phan_TOM]

LOL. I wish!

You're obviously not trying hard enough Phil! (okay, maybe there was some exaggeration in my comment )

And yes Tony, I agree, taking only what's necessary is a good philosophy, as long as you don't end up being 'stupid light'

[Gusto]

Tough question to ask.

There are many variables, eg. level of physical fitness and strength, level of mental preparedness and strength, correct fit of pack.

Whilst Franco's on legged suggestion is unsual, that may be the simplest answer. This is an issue I have contemplated deeply a few times due to OHS of clients. It's an issue that I am yet to see be accurately resolved. Work Safe have a variety of guidelines when it comes to lifting and carrying items, but it doesn't refer to wearing an item http://www.worksafe.vic.gov.au/__data/assets/pdf_file/0020/9425/large_bulky_awkwardVs3.pdf . The Absolute maximum they state anyone should lift is 25kgs. It also emphasizes that the same repetitive action of carrying 10kg is of high risk too.

It's certainly not as simple as just a percentage of body weight, as that implies that the unfit, over weight person can carry more than the fit and healthy lighter weight person. A more accurate measure would be to use a eg. 7 divided your BMI to work out a percentage of body weight. A little more simply it would be 7 / BMI x Body Weight = Pack Weight.

There are a few issues still with this...
*What is the correct number eg. 5,6,7 or 8 etc. that who defines this number?
*The BMI is known to be somewhat inaccurate. For example many elite athletes would rank as being overweight due to them having muscle bulk. Heck, I almost count as overweight!


So despite all my contemplation there are only two thing I strongly promote to my clients:
* If you don't need it, don't carry it.
* Always use a friend when lifting and lowering your pack. The action of putting a pack on Solo is when you are most likely to injure your spine. Especially when you're feeling exhausted.

Also planning to camp at water sources where possible is important too.

No doubt some people would struggle with that much weight and others, like guides in the mountains chaperoning clients or doing food drops, can run up mountains all day long with 40kg and smile all the way.

Whilst I'd prefer to carry 15 kg instead of 30kg, I am quite used to carrying 30kg and it doesn't bother me.


As for my personal pack weight for work:
My pack empty weighs almost 4kgs. (WE Lost World)
First Aid and Coms probably weighs over 3kgs.
My main sleeping bag has 1kg of down, so I think it's about 1.6kgs
I sleep under a fly ~ 800grams
Sleeping mat ~ 800 grams

Often 2-3 L of water. It's not uncommon to carry more.

I'm at over 12kgs, and I haven't got any clothes, rain gear, food, fuel or stove yet

Stove is a Trangia, but I'm unlikely to carry this if I have the first aid too. I'm unsure how heavy 4-5 days worth of food is. It's pretty heavy as we need need to over cater a little to allow for some choice and spillage, and in case we need don't make it on time to the food drop etc.

Last trip I did was in a dry area. I regularly carried 4-5 L of water. The most I carried was 12 L of water.

All up I have no doubt that I was carrying over 30kgs after food drop and collection of water. We only were walking 10km though. But in soft sand and offtrack it still takes a while, even when it's flat.

In rare circumstances I have carried two complete packs for short sections (eg. up to 4 km). I expect that would have been a total of 40-45kg. Surprisingly though if you clip it the second pack on properly in front of you then it is really quite comfortable. The main issue with it is you can't see your feet.


Reading this forum makes me feel like I carry alot of weight.

Edit: I corrected Empty pack weight

[Miyata610]

Good answer Gusto.

One of our regular food drops comes in at 33kg. That's in addition to pack weight, safety gear, personal gear and food & water. Most droppers would want to share that load, but we do have one famous dropper who happily does that by himself, and has been known to carry considerably more. Most drops can be done as a day trip or as an overnighter. Some take several days, like the Western and Eastern Arthurs.

I too have carried a client's pack in addition to my own. Again only for a few km, but of course that was all up hill, otherwise she would have carried it herself. LOL. On another occasion, after doing a small drop in to new pelion I came across a distressed gentleman who needed help getting out. I carried his pack on top of mine.... very awkward, not recommended.

So I'm guessing for short distances I've had 50kg. But again, I know someone who regularly exceeds that.

Getting that weight off the ground and on to your back can be very difficult, and dangerous. It can also damage your pack unless you have good technique.

[steveo]

Over the last few years I've been getting right into light gear and it has made a huge difference to my enjoyment levels in the bush.

Having said that, I think (as Gusto & Phill mentioned) there is a big distinction between private trips and work trips (where you are in charge of others safety).

If I can get my pack under 25kgs whilst leading a trip than I'm happy, however if I'm going solo I'd probably get it under 15kg. (Leading a trip next month and aiming for 20kg!!)

But to answer the question, for me 28kg or over is stupid heavy (i weigh about 75kg). Not that 27kgs is smart, just not stupid heavy when I’m working.

[Tony]

And yes Tony, I agree, taking only what's necessary is a good philosophy, as long as you don't end up being 'stupid light'

I agree phan-Tom, from my experience it is a fine line between 'stupid light' and good light, while I have never been in danger with using LW gear, a few times early on in my LW journey I have pushed the boundaries a bit more than I wished to and now after may years I am mostly happy with my three season and four season kits.

I often see walkers with heavy stainless steel plates, mugs and cooking pots and wonder why.

Tony

[Explorer_Sam]

When we were in Anaconda Bendigo, a young man there that was helping me to fit a pack suggested that you should have no more than 7 kg in your pack on a three day walk. Once we were outside Dad and I bursted into laughter at the thought, considering we carry twice that on average each for an overnight walk. I might also add, I'm sick of the Anaconda staff asking me whether I am buying gear for school camps and Duke of Ed. Can us kids not bushwalk simply from our love of the outdoors?

[Dale]

When we were in Anaconda Bendigo, a young man there that was helping me to fit a pack suggested that you should have no more than 7 kg in your pack on a three day walk.

Damn, I wish the Anaconda stores in Sydney would sell Ultralight gear

[Gusto]

suggested that you should have no more than 7 kg in your pack on a three day walk.

The more experience you'll get in the Bush, the less experienced some sales people appear.

I was in a shop last year that told me that anything other than a freestanding tent was '$h!7'. He was quite forceful about his opinion, and was even prepared to back his opinion by stating how many nights he'd sleep in a tent a year. I subsequently didn't really want to engage in conversation with him about tents as he was rather dogmatic. I did tell him that I was used to sleeping under a tarp with no poles whatsoever, so I felt that I could handle the complexities of a tunnel tent. Ultimately I didn't but a tent from this shop.

[Explorer_Sam]

The more experience you'll get in the Bush, the less experienced some sales people appear.

Hahaha!

I was in a shop last year that told me that anything other than a freestanding tent was '$h!7'. He was quite forceful about his opinion, and was even prepared to back his opinion by stating how many nights he'd sleep in a tent a year. I subsequently didn't really want to engage in conversation with him about tents as he was rather dogmatic. I did tell him that I was used to sleeping under a tarp with no poles whatsoever, so I felt that I could handle the complexities of a tunnel tent. Ultimately I didn't but a tent from this shop.

I wouldn't have bought a tent from his shop either!

[wayno]

stupid heavy is when you know you're carrying stuff you really didnt need to take and you're struggling with carrying your pack...
i wont argue its because you know you could be carrying gear that's a lot lighter, not everyone has the luxury of having the money to change their gear. although if you can afford to change your gear then that is stupid heavy

[nq111]

Stupid heavy is when the weight of water in your pack exceeds the weight of all other gear.

Amazing how attitudes change though. When i was young a pack to heavy meant you should train harder or HTFU . My first overland track walk as a teen (solo) i had 33kg from memory. Of course the face track to start as well.

I think the current attitudes to lighten up are very healthy however.

[north-north-west]

To me stupid heavy is carrying 1 gram more than you have to.

The trouble is, sometimes you can't know what you will definitely need until you're out there needing it.

There's very little in my kit that doesn't get used every walk - some of the 1st aid gear & the PLB. (I am, of course, excluding my photographic equipment.) With the camera gear, I think my regular winter kit weighs in at about 17kg. I could reduce that to around 12kg if I left the camera gear at home. But I'd regret it. There's more to walking than speed and weight.

[nq111]

There's more to walking than speed and weight.

Amen to that

[Ent]

Fix the quote brackets and +1 to the last post.

[corvus]

To quote NNW
[/quote] There's more to walking than speed and weight.[/quote]
I agree
corvus

[wildernesswanderer]

To me stupid heavy is carrying 1 gram more than you have to.

The trouble is, sometimes you can't know what you will definitely need until you're out there needing it.

There's very little in my kit that doesn't get used every walk - some of the 1st aid gear & the PLB. (I am, of course, excluding my photographic equipment.) With the camera gear, I think my regular winter kit weighs in at about 17kg. I could reduce that to around 12kg if I left the camera gear at home. But I'd regret it. There's more to walking than speed and weight.

How right this is, I have been at Thredbo in summer on a family holiday, 25th December in t-shirt and shorts wading the Thredbo River fly fishing then two days later in winter gear and a wind chill of -20 at the top of the chair lifts.

And to me I want to start hiking for two reasons, fly fishing back waters and to photograph wilderness areas in winter. So light weight and speed are definitely not on a high priority list so to speak.

[Nuts]

Back pre 'famous' 40/50kg was common, no big deal... With a body failing from such silliness I would consider expecting anyone to carry such weight as negligent (even to save them from themselves). No wonder the outdoor world becomes choked with ir law, litigation or littered with retired hurt. Greedy or gullible? Irresponsible at best. 25kg is a heavy pack

[doogs]

Depends on the individual, anything from 15-50kg I'd guess. Personally on the trips I generally do 25kg is a lot, but on well formed tracks such as the OLT a coupla 6 packs could easily be added

[RSD]

The trouble is, sometimes you can't know what you will definitely need until you're out there needing it.

Exactly.

There's more to walking than speed and weight.

Certainly - there are great views to be had on the way up, not just at the summit (which is often enveloped in cloud anyway!).

[Mark F]

To me stupid-heavy is carrying a weight that prevents me from either enjoying the trip or completing the trip.

[Nuts]

Depends on the individual, anything from 15-50kg I'd guess. Personally on the trips I generally do 25kg is a lot, but on well formed tracks such as the OLT a coupla 6 packs could easily be added

Yes, it's possible, not a good idea as any sort of sustainable long term career but I don't know many old guides.. Well there was that chap with the titanium hip ..what Was his name?

[Ent]

Yeap much a factor of the individual and the walk. Passive aggressive contests use to abound on how heavy pack a person could carry have now have swung to how light. In all such things do not make much sense.

I agree with Nuts 25 kg is a heavy pack. But more often I wind up exceeding that. For an open track walk not such an issue but falling over in snow coveted scree it is murder.

I have learnt a lot from lighter weight posters but that does not mean I will follow in their footsteps.

Carry what you are happy with. I have a friend that is fine at 16-17 kilograms but suffers at 20 kilograms. Makes no sense pushing them past 17 kilograms. The trick is to find the right gear at the right price to achieve this. We are lucky that increasing amount of gear allows this goal quite easily.

Love the comment on some salespeople. More than a few are great sources of information but a few can be humorous to people that have their requirements sorted but potentially dangerous to the newbies. By dangerous I mean fitting people out in such a way that they give up bushwalking.

Cheers