How heavy is stupid heavy

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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby Craig D » Wed 12 Sep, 2012 5:56 am

Stupidly heavy pack weight depends a lot on the terrain you are travelling over. If you're walking on a vehicle track or normal walking track you can carry a lot more than you can when heading off track.

Personally I think walkers should be considering their pack weights relative to their body weight, rather than straight pack weight. A 20kg pack may be easy for a 6' 80kg person to carry, but could cause a lot of grief to someone weighing 50kg. With this in mind here are my criteria:

  • 25% or less of body weight is ideal.
  • 33% of body weight is a maximum for normal walking, and can be considered the limit of comfort for off track work.
  • 33%-50% can be carried on vehicle tracks and good walking tracks if required.
  • Over 50% sucks in general, and is what I consider to be stupidly heavy.

Having carried packs with weights in all four of the above ranges, a lighter pack is definitely more enjoyable. That said, there is a certain satisfaction in carting a ridiculously heavy load to the disbelief of others :D
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby Gusto » Wed 12 Sep, 2012 7:27 am

Craig D wrote: That said, there is a certain satisfaction in carting a ridiculously heavy load to the disbelief of others :D


I agree to this. However it's not a level of satisfaction that I desire for in life.



My body weight is about 83Kg. When I've carried over 50% of my weight I was very mostly very comfortable as I had the weight both in front and behind my torso. The only area of my body that was sore was my thigh/quads when going uphill. I was so comfortable that I didn't feel the need to sit down at breaks. It was difficult to sit down or stand up though.
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby nakedape » Thu 13 Sep, 2012 10:30 am

A lack of fitness has a multiplier effect on pack weight - and I guess we all realise that. Therefore, stupid heavy sits on a sliding scale & is something that only the individual can determine. For me, up to 18kg is a breeze at any time. If I have an extended walk (10ish days) planned then I need to judge my current fitness level (and improve it if necessary) before setting off with a 27kg pack (its all in the planning).

That said, at my fittest I still find anything over 28kg stupidly heavy (28% of my body weight), whereas my other half copes well(ish) with 23kg (35%) - go figure!
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby Tony » Thu 13 Sep, 2012 12:38 pm

Carrying insanely heavy or stupid heavy packs when you are young might be a badge of honour, but what I am finding as I am getting a bit older (pushing 60) my body does not enjoy heavy packs any more especially as I have a nearly worn out lower back, going lighter has not only allowed me to continue bushwalking and as my pack weight is getting lighter my enjoyment of walking is going up.

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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby kanangra » Thu 13 Sep, 2012 4:06 pm

The 90lbs we were carrying in Mt Mule packs (no waist belt and no padding on leather shoulder straps) when we started out on our 17 day Western Arthurs and South Coast Circuit in 1977 was crazy heavy.

K :shock:
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby ILUVSWTAS » Thu 13 Sep, 2012 4:34 pm

Something not mentioned here is the length of the trip.

Do a 2 week trip in Tassie and keep it under 20kg?? Yeh good luck with that........
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby Wolfix » Thu 13 Sep, 2012 6:04 pm

So subjective! At 21 I carried 20kg on the OLT; my first ever multi-day walk. I was fine most of the time. No knee or back problems. I had a Kathmandu hybrid pack too. Very unwieldy. I was hardcore. Now I would consider that too heavy. 8 years on and scoliosis flare-ups mean less weight is better. With yoga and weights training I'm sure I could get back up to 20kg comfy but I'm not keen to do that. 16kg is enough for me these days, not including weight of clothing worn.
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby TerraMer » Thu 13 Sep, 2012 8:11 pm

My pack right now is stupid heavy. Walking for 12 weeks I've packed a few extra luxuries. Probably won't take long to post them back home when I get sick of feeling like an *&%$#!, I mean pack horse :roll:
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby Franco » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 7:58 am

Kind of funny for me to read this sort of thread.
Only a few years ago anyone carrying a pack lighter than 30kg was a wimp and having a sub 3kg tent made with less than 70 denier material was suicidal.
Now apparently 15 denier is OK and you are not likely going to be arrested or stoned for having a sub 15kg pack.
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby Tony » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 9:06 am

Franco wrote:Kind of funny for me to read this sort of thread.
Only a few years ago anyone carrying a pack lighter than 30kg was a wimp and having a sub 3kg tent made with less than 70 denier material was suicidal.
Now apparently 15 denier is OK and you are not likely going to be arrested or stoned for having a sub 15kg pack.
What next ?
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Some good points Franco, over the years I do not know how many times I have been told I will die if I bushwalk with lightweight gear.

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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby Mark F » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 5:41 pm

Tony - If I die while walking (assuming it is quick and relatively painless) it will be a perfect end! You could thank them for their kind words.
"Perfection is attained not when there is nothing more to add, but when there is nothing more to remove".
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby ILUVSWTAS » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 5:53 pm

Mark F wrote:Tony - If I die while walking (assuming it is quick and relatively painless) it will be a perfect end! You could thank them for their kind words.



+1.

Beats getting old. and beats a slow decaying death.
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby wildernesswanderer » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 7:49 pm

Franco wrote:Kind of funny for me to read this sort of thread.
Only a few years ago anyone carrying a pack lighter than 30kg was a wimp and having a sub 3kg tent made with less than 70 denier material was suicidal.
Now apparently 15 denier is OK and you are not likely going to be arrested or stoned for having a sub 15kg pack.
What next ?
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Well the thread wasn't supposed to be funny ;) but I asked because when I was a kid I was in scouts and often was camping and bushwalking. There was no such thing as lightweight, this is what you had to take and you took it. I remember my pack was simple, not with all the bells and whistles of todays with a rudimentary harness, if that's what you called it and you just wore it. Tents were nothing like todays and weight of a tent was easily 4kg or over. You took billy pots hung somewhere outside of the pac and therm-a-rest mats, what were they. Now that said I guess we only camped cold a few time, remember cracking ice jumping in water in the Blue Mountains, never moved so fast in all my life to find a camp fire but that was way back in the 70's early 80's.

Technology seems to be out of control now and seems every gram matters. I have fond memories of trying to climb hills with a overloaded pack way back them and never regretted the adventures. I'm a lot older now and my back would probably have second thoughts on trying to do that again, so I was wondering in todays world what is Stupidly Heavy, Or maybe what should I be aiming at trying to carry now days.

I have never thought of lightweight, i have only ever though bomb proof and high quality. Best I can afford no matter what it is.

Been a interesting read
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby Franco » Fri 14 Sep, 2012 8:45 pm

Best is whatever you consider best.
To some the best bushwalking gear is the lightest that can do the job.
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby andrewbish » Sat 15 Sep, 2012 5:40 am

Craig D wrote:..

  • 25% or less of body weight is ideal.
  • 33% of body weight is a maximum for normal walking, and can be considered the limit of comfort for off track work.
  • 33%-50% can be carried on vehicle tracks and good walking tracks if required.
  • Over 50% sucks in general, and is what I consider to be stupidly heavy.
..

D


One modifier I would add is that you should use your 'normal' or 'ideal' body weight in these calculations. Ie exclude excess body weight eg I weigh 90kg atm but my trim weight is 85kg, so I base the calcs on the lower number. This becomes more important if you have a lot of 'padding' and your core is already carrying a decent extra load.
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby Wolfix » Sat 15 Sep, 2012 8:50 am

We weighed in before setting off on the OLT and our packs were 20, 25 and 30kg. My friends' tent was 3kg 2P. These small European people who had been espousing the benefits of ultralight gear (including what must have been an early model Kovea Titanium stove clipped on his belt) looked at us in horror and said "The tent is too heavy! LOSE IT! LOOOOSE IT!!!" They seemed so adamant but if course we took the tent and just as well because
Pine Valley hut was full and we had to camp out.
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby Mark F » Sat 15 Sep, 2012 9:29 am

Andrew - you should really add the 5Kg to your base load :)
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby Tony » Sat 15 Sep, 2012 9:33 am

Mark F wrote:Tony - If I die while walking (assuming it is quick and relatively painless) it will be a perfect end! You could thank them for their kind words.


Hi Mark,

I could not agree with you more, but I would like it to happen in about thirty years time when I am around ninety.

Last month I did a mountain running race up Black Mountain here in Canberra, and at the top we celebrated the birthday of one of the competitors, he just turned 85.

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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby Franco » Sat 15 Sep, 2012 9:49 am

"We weighed in before setting off on the OLT and our packs were 20, 25 and 30kg"
When I did the OLT a mate of mine and myself had about 12kg each all up (we were not sharing anything) and no we were definitely not UL , LW at best...
But yes we did notice that most had much bigger loads and several stayed in the huts as well.
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby andrewbish » Sat 15 Sep, 2012 2:01 pm

Mark F wrote:Andrew - you should really add the 5Kg to your base load :)


Mark - you deal with your excess, I'll deal with mine :P
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby wobbly » Sat 15 Sep, 2012 9:23 pm

Stupid heavy is the 8 or 10 litres of water you added because the damn risk averse ranger tells you the water holes are dry only for you to find them full.
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby daveholst » Sun 16 Sep, 2012 11:40 am

My girlfriend and I did the OT with 13kg each. Even took a bottle of wine! I find that by using lighter gear it improves the walking for us. I like to go lighter when I'm just packing for me :)

That being said I was a little envious of the guy on OT that had walked in everything to make fresh hamburgers. Only at the end of the day :)

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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby Wolfix » Mon 17 Sep, 2012 7:42 pm

I just look at photos of bush walkers in the Mountains in 1900 to remind myself that outdoor gear is a luxury, not always a necessity.

I did OT with a Husky rain jacket, Damart thermals, a hybrid pack sans daypack, a luxury sized sleeping mat, Roman sleeping bag from K-Mart, board shorts, tracksuit pants and a Polartec 300 on loan. Oh, and a tent taken from someone's bin!
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby Wolfix » Mon 17 Sep, 2012 7:43 pm

We carried in eggs and blueberries and had the best breakfasts in every hut.
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby Miyata610 » Mon 17 Sep, 2012 7:54 pm

I've carried a sweet potato and a pumpkin and various other fresh veggies in to the Western Arthur's, with a view to making a fresh curry, and then run out of fuel making it. But that's just plain stupid.
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby Wollemi » Mon 17 Sep, 2012 8:52 pm

This guy stuffed his knees walking in Alaska with 38kg.
$85 000 can buy you a lighter load, you know. And it did. By flying in food drops and his kayak.

'John Cantor's first three attempts ended in catastrophic failure but much to the horror of friends and family he wouldn't surrender.'

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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby Mark F » Mon 17 Sep, 2012 10:11 pm

Having just watched Australian Story my main comment that he didn't have sufficient experience to attempt the Brooks Range - I suspect not even on his final attempt. Its not just a matter of doing NOLS course and away you go. Especially solo, you really need years to build the experience and mental side to tackle that sort of trip. It was interesting though watching the change in his gear to some standard US UL stuff - Dyneema pack and what looked like a SMD Wild Oasis or similar.
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby mikethepike » Mon 17 Sep, 2012 11:53 pm

I should be in bed by now but this is an interesting topic so just I thought I'd add two thoughts.
1. Pack what you think you need and if your pack feels too heavy, remove things that you have least need of.
It's understandable for newcomers to extended walking to pack more than they need - it's probably nearly always a result of erring on the side of caution. Unfortunately, it seems to me that many experienced walkers often set them a bad example by carrying packs far heavier than is reasonably called for.
2. If buying a pack, carefully consider what size you need. Rucksacks can be a bit like sheds. No matter how big, you'll find a way to fill it! :)
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby Wolfix » Tue 18 Sep, 2012 1:56 pm

I agree re pack size. I always recommend to pack customers to bring in all the gear they want to pack or pick it out in the shop. Pack should be the last thing you buy (or second last, so you can try your boots on with your pack weight on your back! Most people already have the boots though.)

I am in favour of cautious packing but I think more coordination between groups would be better. I often walk with a group and we have too many of one thing between us.

It's important to train for the pack weight and, closer to your hike, with your pack weight because we can take more if we prepare the muscles and bones first. It's all about conditioning your body.
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Re: How heavy is stupid heavy

Postby Nuts » Tue 18 Sep, 2012 3:39 pm

Well.. I actually think formula based on body weight/size v pack weight (while perhaps contributing) have little to do with injury/ avoidance. I have worked with small girls who could carry guide packs week in and out yet large fellas who were always injured, some for life.

Genetics, anatomy, other exercise and flexibility. Even keen recreational walkers don't often do similar exercises even in an active home life. Little movements and stretches to the small muscles inserting around the joints are very rare in everyday activity.

The question might be: how much overweight do you think is healthy? The doc might say that being overweight is 'stupid' the only reason to stop at mentioning weight carried on the back would be if they thought some exercise was better than none. End of the day - backpack is not a natural anatomical feature kidding our selfs to think any weight doesnt cause immediate imbalances that (while young and fit, even if not coming from a hard
Physical work life) will always be an act of chance.

My ankles are not good, hips not to bad.. Neither is a stopper. Try crumbling knees with little to re-build upon.. I wouldn't wish this on anyone. The warning is to sit down at the first sign of knees grinding (crepitus) and think hard about your choices. For myself, even this early indication appears to have come too late.
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