Getting Gear for Multiday Alpine Walks

[kmcgreg]

Hi,

We are family of four that have hiked a lot around the world including Nepal in winter. However we have frequently hired or been supplied with gear. We are now looking at buying our own gear to do some multi day walks in Tasmania ie starting with the Overland track then progressing on to other more difficult walks.

Been in the camping gear shops but have left a bit confused. We really want to cut the weight down as we have struggled with overload packs previously- my wife and I carried around 20-22kg each and dont want to do it again. I would like to stick to around 15kg each.
The kids are 14 and 15 and can carry around 10kg each.

We own all the right clothing (merino wool, gortex jackets, gaiters good boots etc ) but need the following:

1. Camp stove - want light weight and will be mainly boiling water for dehydrated food, porridge, noodles, coffee etc. -

2. Sleeping bags :Light weight but warm sleeping bags that can handle sub zero temps - need especially warm for my wife and two teenage daughters. Our current bags are way too heavy to hike with and just aren't warm enough.
Want to be able to zip together if possible. Been looking at goose down bags from many manufacturers - sea to summit, mont, macpac.

3. Tents: 2 x 2 man tents capable of sleeping in snow.

We obviously want good gear that will last but also have a budget. We are happy to buy online - we have previously bought a fortune in icebreaker wool clothing for our last trip from overseas and have been very happy.

3. Two new backpacks-. Kids have some already and ours have seen there day and aren't that good for longer camping trips.


I have been browsing other posts and starting to get some ideas but would appreciate some help from some of the experienced cold weather walkers here.

Thanks in advance.

[MartyGwynne]

Hmmm
Keep looking and trying and buying and buying again.
I managed to cary 30+ kgs with two kids on the OLT a few years back, not fun.
Sleeping bags I use are now very very light weight only about 500-600 gms macpac down ones which gets boosted up by synthetic liner (stretchy ones) and clothes I wear around camp and off to bed in.
A good way to boost warmth is a good sleeping mat - price will show you the way as there are many of them to choose from (I need another two now so will be looking again).
Cooking can be very easy on the OLT as you have a hut to use or tent pads to uses which give you a stable place to heat water. You could get away with just two billies and a small gas burner and spread out the gas canisters amongst your group. (everyone has spare gas canisters these days)
Packs are packs are packs and now I have the good old heavy duty old one, cheap thing (for easy walks to lend to people) and light weight expensive one (Aarn pack). So it depends on what you want to spend or what weight you want to go for.
Waterproofing - Your gear and packs I now use very big dry bag as pack liner and smaller dry bags as food bags and for clothes sleeping gear I use a lightweight compression bag which is kept in the pack liner dry bag so no need to double up there (the food bags sometimes get taken out and left out when it is raining so dry bag keeps it non-wet).
There are lots of tents I would not hesitate to take my Hubba Hubba on the OLT but if you are a tall person then it may be a bit small for sharing. Chase up the tent posts on this site.
The kids (young people) may need a bigger tent or could cope with a smaller tent - It snowed on us when I did the OLT with kids and we only used tents so I did (and still do) carry a tarp with me to give extra shelter from rain and snow (yes it snows in the mid Jan).
I have found the wool clothing to be good and mainly use it now merino-icebreaker etc good for layers and they seem to not smell so much after a few days and are easily rinsed out.
You could even consider a bivvey bag for extra warm for the sleeping bags for the kids - it may even keep them a bit drier at times too.
Beanies to keep the head warm.
Buy a food dehydrator and make your own food. Baked beans are a great one to do as they rehydrate well overnight and you can then just heat and eat (better still make your own baked beans and dehydrate them). Practise on rehydrating the food and meals etc before you go - hope I'm not telling you how to suck eggs but try it on the kids too!.
Do a one or two night walk first to find the weaknesses in your planing.
Marty.

[Moondog55]

Summer or Winter??
you say snow so I assume winter
Winter and 22 kilos is close to my normal load for a week or so as I need at least a kilo of food and fuel a day.
How big is your budget??
I could easily spent $10k- on a complete new outfit for winter buying from the skin out for 4 people

Forget the zip together SBs, too cold, but Roger Caffin has a great idea, take the light weight summer down bags and add a decent light weight down quilt, then you can use the down quilt as extra over the top of the two of you with a mattress that couples, best of both worlds.
Snow means you need good insulation underneath you, spend big there.

For my needs nothing but an MSR Shellite stove, the XGK-EX, but your needs may vary- sometimes you really do need to melt snow for drinking water

Rucksacs, even kids need a 75 litre capacity sack, winter clothing can be bulky and it really needs to be inside the pack if not being worn.
Others will have different opinions but my kids at that age used 70 litre packs. Lowe no longer make that particular model but a smaller Alpine pack for women, tall and skinny for skiing. I like the Breakout from WE for teenagers

[Mark F]

Just a couple of thoughts.

Stoves. As you are cooking for 4, I would suggest a remote stove - one where the burner head is connected to the fuel source by a tube. There various models using gas (easiest fuel but if winter camping you need an invertable version), shellite, multi-fuel. Upright canister stoves become a little unstable with large pots on top.

+1 on the quilt plus 3 light bag. Very versatile and you can MYOG the quilts.

[Moondog55]

The older MSRs were unstable with bigger pots, the new units are very much better.
The widest pot MSR recommend is 250mm which is a big pot.
No matter which pot you or stove you use you need a firm insulated base in winter to stop them melting through the snow and falling over.
Which-ever stove and pot system you decide on pot cosies are good to keep food hot and increase cooking times without using fuel.
with 4 people in a group it would also be fuel effective to get some high quality large capacity thermos flasks, wide mouth to cook the porridge overnite and another so you wake up to instant hot water for morning coffee.

[wayno]

it would help to know your budget to narrow down the choices of gear that will be in your price range.

[kmcgreg]

Thanks for the replies so far - yes we all have a budget!
I am thinking of getting the Sea to Summit Traverse XTII sleeping bags - we already have STS thermal liners .
Specials on for around $450 each.

Stove - thinking the new Jetboil Sumo Ti with perhaps an extra pot.

Tents - mmm would prefer to make it simple and buy something in Australia. Very unsure at the moment about these. Need stuff that suits Tassie conditions in most seasons.

Packs will go into local shops and get fitted for two new ones.


Any comments on these?

[wayno]

one option if you buy everything in one place, since you're buying so much you should be able to negotiate a good deal on the package....
otherwise shop around for the best deals. or compare the two options....
theres almost always a sale on somewhere, it's just a matter of locating it....
some people on here will go as far as ordering some gear from overseas for the best deals and use mail forwarding companies for cheap shipping, but do your homework if yo do that, bulky items arent cheap to ship, I just got caned $70 for a pack from the states but i shipped a jacket for $10 and saved $200 on local prices...

[nq111]

Sounds like you are in a fun position - i think you will find everyone on this forum relishes a gear buy-up!

If you get familiar with a number of the US and UK online retailers, are not super fussy to brand or model and are reasonably patient, you can come across some incredible deals over time. For example I have seen equivalent quality sleeping bags to the S2S you are considering for around $150 at times. But you need to have time up your sleeve to take advantage of these deals.

In my humble opinion, there are two items that you should absolutely not compromise on. A quality four-season tent - as in many parts of Tassie you can find yourself in a gale and blizzard any time of year. And a warm sleeping bag. One your girls will get cold easy and one truly freezing night in substandard bags and you will probably never get them out in the bush again. Two, you can tolerate a lot more discomfort, problems and errors on the track if you can always retreat into a safe tent and warm bag at the end of the day.

Just about everything else you can make do - nearly everyone on here has in the past or still does to a degree.

Anyway, have fun with the purchases, i am sure you can get lots of opinions on any models you may considering from here.

[wayno]

gearbuyer.com is states based, it allows you to search gear by category or specific name and list who is selling it at what price....

[kmcgreg]

I am unsure as to how cold to get. Comparing bags is not straightforward. The sts traverse II seems to cover the temp and weighs in around 1.2 kg. The alpine bags are all heavier and constrictive mummy shapes.

I had a look at the Mont Helium 600 that only weights 1kg which seems good.
I own a mont zenith 700 which is a bit heavy but reasonably warm.

What weight should I aim for and have adequate warmth?

[Moondog55]

Not weight as such but temperature rating, go for a comfort level of -5 or -8C , better to be a little too warm than too cold. using a good mattress system and inside a tent that temperature rating should be OK for almost all occasions if you are smart about dressing for the conditions.
If buying new and very best quality a kilo should be OK, it depends on the quality of the down to a large degree, smaller, narrower, tighter bags weigh less but harder to wear more clothes inside them.
I always use a bivvy bag so my choice of tent will be different, my sleeping bag is also too specialised to make a comparison but it weighs 990 grams and is good to minus 20 with reasonable comfort and lots lower with a down suit on.

[southbank]

G'day
I highly recommend the following sites will assist your choice:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/index.html (subsrcription but well worth it for the gear reviews alone)

http://www.bushwalking.org.au/FAQ/FAQ_Intro.htm (read the lightweight FAQs)

http://www.backpackgeartest.org/ (Again, good reviews and includes use over time)

Have a look at golite and mont bell for sleeping

In packs look at golite, gossamer gear, granite gear

For tents see big agnes and Tarptent.

There are lots more out there, the above are just tried and tested.

You'll find that for going lighter the Australian retailers have limited stock of gear, you will get a much better deal to purchase via www from some of the large US stores (Campsaver, rei, moontrail etc)
Great customer service with most of them
Hope this helps

[southbank]

Just saw your post on the Jetboil ti. Can't be beaten as a water boiler but you may want to look at other options if it is for all your cook needs.

[nq111]

I am unsure as to how cold to get. Comparing bags is not straightforward. The sts traverse II seems to cover the temp and weighs in around 1.2 kg. The alpine bags are all heavier and constrictive mummy shapes.

Personally, and I think many would agree, about -7c / 15F is about right for Tassie. It can get colder in some parts no doubt, but if you have good tent, good ground insulation and a reasonable array of warm clothes to use as boosters (e.g. down jacket, mid-weight fleeces) you can manage the few colder nights without much drama. A good quality bag of this rating will be a bit under 1kg.

Comparing bags is definately not easy! Do some research on down fill weights/ ratings relative to warmth (search Andy Kirkpatrick writings / blogs for one) and use that as a starting point along with En ratings. And on the choices you narrow down search for user reviews. There are a lot of good bags on the market.

Also worth carrying a vapour barrier for the cold nights if you get them. This adds a lot of warmth for little weight and preserves your down. Google 'vapour barrier sleep' and you will find lots of good discussion. Apparently this doesn't work for all (they sweat too much) but works well for me. I have one of these http://www.extac.com.au/Adventure_Medic ... ad1138.htm, very light, serves as your emergency spaceblanket, is an emergency bivy in a pinch and is durable enough for a number of uses (at least as a liner). For more money the WM hotsac is meant to be great and is also light. Tassie has stupid weather that is generally humid and not quite freezing to just below freezing. Down suffers (loses insulating power) quickly in these conditions and the vapour barrier can help this too.

If in doubt, tend to the warmer side (IMO). Nothing to spoil your enjoyment of the bush and have you sloppy on the trail then a cold sleepless night. I doubt you'll notice the extra 200 grams of down to get a significantly warmer bag. I used to carry a -18c bag which was great - and managed to pretty warm temperatures no problem by just opening it up. But I am happy with my -7 bag now with the backup systems described above.

Lastly, not all mummy shapes are as constrictive as others but if you want to get maximum warmth for weight you want a tight fit. But again, 100g of high quality down adds a lot of extra warmth and means you can get a looser bag for equivalent if you are not too anal about weight.

Choose well - as i said before - i reckon your sleep system (other's advice about a warm mat also being critical are spot on) and tent are the most critical items you will buy. You can get away with all sorts of other crap if you get these two items right.

And please keep posting on your progress - we all love being 5 minute experts here and providing our 2c

[nq111]

This is an article i had in mind http://www.andy-kirkpatrick.com/article ... ags_warmth

and this: http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Sleeping- ... -Plasma-15

[kmcgreg]

I think I am getting somewhere:

Sticking with tents and sleeping bags at the moment.

I am deciding between these bags now that i have given up on Australia and am looking at the US stores.

1. Western Mountineering Antelope MF

THE SPECS for 6'0":•Shape: Mummy (w/ full collar)
•Size: 180 cm
•Rating: -15 C
•Loft: 7 " / 18 cm
•Inside Girth shdr/hip/foot: 62"/53"/39" / 157/135/99 cm
•Fill Weight: 26 oz / 735 g
•Total Weight: 2 lb 5 oz / 1050 g
•Stuff size: 8 x 17 in / 20 x 43 cm


or

Marmont Plamsa 15

Rating : Woman Comfort -1.7 C, Men -7.8C Extreme -25.9
Overall Weight:◦ 864 g

Fill Weight:◦500 g

Main Material:◦
100% Nylon 10d Micro Ripstop DWR 0.8 oz/yd

Main Material:◦
100% Nylon 10d Micro Ripstop DWR 0.8 oz/yd

Lining Material:◦
100% Nylon 10d Micro Ripstop DWR 0.8 oz/yd

Insulation Material:◦
900+ Fill Power Goose Down

Tents: Less Sure but considering MSR Fury or Hilleberg Jannu 2 or one of the other similar quality Hillebergs eg Nammatj, Nallo2

Anyway - any comments on the sleeping bags?

[nq111]

Both are great bags - get the one you like you won't go wrong with either.

[Onestepmore]

Anyway - any comments on the sleeping bags?

I have yet to buy a top class winter sleeping bag for myself, but have a look at these - there is a -12 C one for a pretty competative price compared to the WM ones - 561g, US$365
Mind you, you need to buy a hood or down hat separately

http://www.zpacks.com/quilts.shtml

[iGBH]

I think I am getting somewhere:

Sticking with tents and sleeping bags at the moment.

I am deciding between these bags now that i have given up on Australia and am looking at the US stores.

1. Western Mountineering Antelope MF

or

Marmont Plamsa 15

Tents: Less Sure but considering MSR Fury or Hilleberg Jannu 2 or one of the other similar quality Hillebergs eg Nammatj, Nallo2

Anyway - any comments on the sleeping bags?

I purchased some similar gear recently specifically for alpine snow trips. For me, weight was not a main consideration, moreso suitability for the conditions, practicality and comfort.

In the end i went with a Feathered Friends Snowbunting sleeping bag. Check out the comparison on Outdoorgearlab (http://www.outdoorgearlab.com/Sleeping-Bag-Down-Cold-Weather-Reviews/Feathered-Friends-Snowbunting). Main reason i went with this over the Antelope was the better shell material and better fit. Prices are pretty similar.

For the tent, picked up a Jannu for 20% off at American Alpine Institute. Have a Nallo 3 GT already, but IMO tunnel tents have limitations when snow camping. I would prefer a dome for these conditions - for me the Jannu struck the best balance between comfort, weight, bomber strength and quality.

[Mountain Rocket]

Anyway - any comments on the sleeping bags?

The Plasma uses a 10d shell which by any standards is quite thin, whereas the Antelope MF uses 20d. Still thin but obviously less so.
The other concern I have with the Plasma is it seems to use the same fabric as a liner as it does as a shell. Typically a liner is much more breathable and has a different DWR to the shell. I am not pretending to be a expert on sleeping bags but this to me is unusual and less than desirable.

Another thing to consider is the specifications on the cut of the bag, which to me is one of the most important aspects of a bag. The Plasma is 147cm at the hip vs 135cm of the Antelope, and 109cm vs 99cm at the foot. Obviously the Antelope is a slimmer bag, which may or may not suit you. Getting a bag which has the best fit is one of the most effective ways of increasing its efficiency. Personally this is why I love Feathered Friends' bags but I will let you do your own research into them.

Another nifty thing that the Western Mountaineering bag has is continuous baffles. This allows you to shift the down around the bag, to the top or the bottom which allows for a further degree of temperature control.

Obviously the Antelope is heavier and probably a bit more bulky than the Plasma but it does have a considerable amount more fill (~740g vs ~550g). More food for thought.

I think a fairer comparison could be made between the Plasma and Western Mountaineering's Versalite as they use same shell fabric (Pertex Quantum), similar fill weights (~550g) and a similar final weight (865g for the Plasma vs 905g for the Versalite, both for a 6ft bag).

Best of luck.

[kmcgreg]

I have bought 4x Sea to Summit Traverse XTII sleeping bags, and 2 x Exped Venus ii extreme 2 man 4 season tents.


Ok now stoves... Tossing up between MSR Reactor or wind pro ii. Mainly dehyd meals and coffee/tea.

So choice of mainly water boiling fast and convenient or flexibility of cooking.

Also need to find rain gear for the kids. Went into Macpac but missed their sale on Event jackets. Will keep looking.

[wayno]

mountain designs still have rain jackets on sale http://www.mountaindesigns.com/online-s ... spx?id=243

[wayno]

still some on sale at the clearance store http://www.macpac-outlet.com.au/en_au/g ... s-clothing

[blacksheep]

Went into Macpac but missed their sale on Event jackets. Will keep looking.

No you didn't
How can i help?

[kmcgreg]

A big thanks to black sheep for getting my kids into new Macpac event rain jackets at a great price. Amazing service!

[Mountain Rocket]

Haha plus one to blacksheep and Macpac! Fantastic stuff to see.

[nq111]

I have bought 4x Sea to Summit Traverse XTII sleeping bags, and 2 x Exped Venus ii extreme 2 man 4 season tents.

Nice Work. Looks like you made two quality choices that I am sure will serve you well.

[roysta]

I have bought 4x Sea to Summit Traverse XTII sleeping bags, and 2 x Exped Venus ii extreme 2 man 4 season tents.

I'm curious, where did you get these and how much did you pay?

[iGBH]

Haha plus one to blacksheep and Macpac! Fantastic stuff to see.

+2.