Jetboil Ti Sol

[Strider]

Why?

Jetboil would be better replacing the unit out of good faith and publishing a hall of fame for failed jetboils with a fair report explaining the failure. That would be an education channel for sensible owners.

Spot on.

Every gear manufacturer would be doing themselves a good deed by supplying a replacement or at least fixing a piece of gear damaged. Even if the gear user was an abuser and has to pay for it, that would be a better solution than nothing.
Here, jetboil did not offer any alternative but to buy another, at full RRP.

It is far beyond a simple "lets replace it so we look good". It is an all-out commercial decision, requiring careful financial analysis of the consequences. A company handing out replacements every time their product has an issue faces a very serious and real risk of going broke if not approached with caution.

[filterthis]

Hi All,

I see a lot of criticism for the jetboil on this forum and thought I would share my experiences with mine. I have the original version (forget how long ago I got it) and think it is one of the best pieces of kit I have ever owned. We walk mainly in winter and I can honestly say it has been flawless. It has never failed in any way.

I see a few people have had trouble with damaging the pot if there is no liquid in it. Who really thinks that sticking a bare thin piece of metal on a powerful flame is going to be okay under any circumstances? That is a clear case of operator error (being polite here) and should not be considered 'failure' of the stove. You will not get away with that in your own kitchen with expensive cookware for long either.

The jetboil also has one feature that beats almost every other stove hands down and that is safety. If you have to cook in your tent (i know this is to be avoided if possible but sometimes you have to) and you knock over the stove, what happens? If you own a jetboil (and are capable of using it correctly) then you have a tent full of hot water, plenty of swearing and not much else. With any of the other usual suspects (yes I know there are other similar designs to the jetboil) then you have an exposed flame and the real danger of burning your tent and everything else to the ground. At the very least there is the risk of burning a hole in something important. The jetboil is also better than the reactor for carbon monoxide production though with either you should be able to use it fast enough to stop this being a problem.

The best part of all is that I am usually drinking coffee while watching other people still putting their stoves together!

I can accept that the jetboil is not for everyone, but lets separate real deficiencies from the common "my stove didn't stop me being an idiot therefore its no good" that seems to account for the majority of criticisms.

For the record, I have cooked hundreds of meals for two on mine and the piezo ignition still works, it simmers just fine and it still looks like the day I bought it. Surely my positive experience of the stove counts just as much the odd negative one?

[ULWalkingPhil]

Wow. You really do love your Jetboil. I never tried one myself, to heavy for me, but i did look into purchasing one a year ago, when i read you could not light without water, that completely turned me off them.

[Azza]

Wow. You really do love your Jetboil. I never tried one myself, to heavy for me,

Other faults aside when you can pull off a 12 day walk with single 100g gas cylinder and dehydrating meals.. I'm quite happy with the weight.

[filterthis]

Why would you want to light it without water? It is instant heat once you do light it and there is no pre-heating necessary. I do not see why you would feel the urge to cook your pot!

If you are cooking something like an egg or steak (yes it can be done) then the same deal applies. Just add the oil/whatever then chuck in the meat/egg and light. The heat transfers so quickly that there is no point pre-heating it like you would a heavy frying pan or saucepan.

Yes I do really like my stove! It is one of the few pieces of kit I have ever had that really lives up to my expectations. If you even half look after it then it just works. The weight does not bother me as once you really add up the fuel, pots etc. there isn't so much difference and I will take the coffee in 3mins from putting down my pack over saving a few grams any time!

[photohiker]

Wow. You really do love your Jetboil. I never tried one myself, to heavy for me, but i did look into purchasing one a year ago, when i read you could not light without water, that completely turned me off them.

Hey Phil. Have you done the sums on the weight? Unless you use something like the Bushbuddy (woodburning stove) it's pretty hard to beat the light fuel use of the Jetboil on a multiday walk.

No idea why you would want to light a stove on an empty pot. I didn't do that on my snowpeak either.

[ULWalkingPhil]

I never realized they where so efficient with fuel consumption. My experience with a gas cooker, the weight of the canisters even empty are heavier than my current cooking kit.

I read so many reports back when i was looking into the Jetboil about burning the jetboils pot and it was virtually useless but for boiling water, I'm only going from what i have read online at the time.

Im very happy with my current cooking system its ultralight and very durable. I can use fire, esbits or metho as a fuel source.

[filterthis]

I don't mean to criticize other peoples choices if that is the way I am coming across. Every walker has different requirements. I choose my gear to perform in the Tassie mountains in winter and accept the compromises that requires.

I certainly do not get 12 days out of a canister. I take 1 x 100g canister per two days when my wife and I head out. This gives me all the coffee I can drink and warm meals whenever we want plus plenty of reserve. I do not believe in carrying the minimum in these conditions and always carry enough for at least two days extra. This gives me plenty of head room if @#&* happens and enough to share if it happens to someone else!

My beef here is that people are slamming gear for not performing in situations that are clearly outside the design brief. The melted stove pictured earlier could not have happened if the operator was doing the right thing. You cannot blame Jetboil for that. Aluminum melts at about 660 C and plastic at a lot less than that. If the rate of thermal input exceeds the ability of the system to sink heat to the atmosphere by too much then it melts. Simple. If you want a stove than will never melt then you will have to make it out of tungsten or platinum or the like and it will be *&%$#! heavy. If you want ultralight gear then you have to make compromises and that means working within certain limits. Yes other stoves may last longer before they melt but this means they are more efficient at losing heat to the atmosphere!

[ninjapuppet]

just got word back from david lama.
He explained that he was melting snow, and did pour a little water into the pot first.

Not sure how much he added, but it was obviously not enough water.

[corvus]

Not being an owner user of the Jetboil I was reluctant to comment on this "melt down" however in my experience with various pots you require some water in the pot but minimum heat to melt snow as you "can burn burn the pot" and without being there that is what IMHO happened , not enough water and to hot to quickly
corvus

[filterthis]

That is the problem with melting snow. It is a terrific insulator and if you do not have enough water in the bottom of the pot you very quickly have the same scenario as heating a dry pot. With the jet boil I would be melting a little snow on as low as possible a heat setting to get things rolling before filling the pot. You need to work your way up to full heat.

I know this looks like a 'design flaw' but it is simply the price you pay for the heat transfer efficiency. Most of the heat really is going into the pot. One of the little demos I like to give people who ask about the stove is to turn it on (with water in of course) full power and then place my bare hands around the burner area. Try doing that with most stove/pot combos and see where the heat is going! That again emphasizes the safety aspect of the Jetboil. When you knock it over it will not set fire to everything.

I am trying not to look like some kind of Jetboil fanatic and there are some things that are not ideal. The shape of the standard pot is not ideal for everything but there are plenty of other pots available. It would be nice if it was lighter but you cannot avoid the durability and price penalties that would entail.

That is the real issue here. Nothing is perfect. Everyone has a different set of priorities and desires. What really bothered me in this thread was the suggestion that the manufacturer should be responsible for the damaged stove. That was operator error pure and simple. No manufacturer can build a truly idiot proof stove as the rapid advancements that can be made in idiocy will always outstrip the advances in design and technology (the term idiot is intended as a generalisation and not directed at anyone specifically). Anyone can make a mistake and we all do, but to criticize a piece of equipment and say it is garbage for failing to work in a situation where the instructions for use were not followed is wrong. Used correctly, the Jetboil will provide many years of faithful service as I am sure most other stoves will too.

Most of the horrible failures we see in hiking equipment seem to be associated with explanations like 'honestly officer, I was just driving along' when the reality was that they were being used far outside their design brief. It is totally counter-productive to present examples of equipment failure without giving an honest account of the situation. I think the last thing we would want to see would be a redesign of a piece of good equipment driven by an inaccurate internet story that gets spread around.

The rant at the end is not directed at the guy with the melted stove as he has been honest about the situation ie. melting snow and didn't put enough water in.

[Nuts]

Could also have been a fin not properly welded? (..just a thought, hard to see what set it off, detached fins have been blamed before.. )

[Tony]

I have a JetBoil PCS, GCS and a Sol Advanced Cooking System (aluminium version), I have not used the Sol much but it is not made anywhere as rugged as the PCS system, I chose the Sol aluminium version as I had seen quite a few reports of damage to the Ti version. I have used and done extensive testing on the PCS/GCS systems, and I have treated the PCS system quite harshly at times and it still is in good condition but I consider the PCS system heavy for what it is and its performance levels, and Filterthis, in my opinion the PCS and Sol Al are two totally different stoves, the only thing common is the basic design and shape is similar looking. I do not have the Sol packaging with me but from memory it also came with a lot of user instructions, much more than any other stove I have purchased and I think the Sol had a warning tag on it warning that if this tag is remove warranty will be voided?, I was unable to work why this tag was attached other than most owners would remove the tag as it got in the way and it would make voiding the warranty easier.

I purchased my Sol second hand from a friend in the US, even though it was not used much, it already had some damage on it, the neoprene cosy sleeve had some charring on it, but as he was about to send me the stove, as he unscrewed the canister, the pin fell out, he returned the stove and got a replacement stove and I received a brand new stove.

I have used the Sol Al a few times, all time with plenty water in it and not on too high a flame setting and the cosy has still received some damage, when the water is boiling I am unable to hold the pot by the cosy as it is so thin and the burner/pot supports becomes very flimsy on the canister, this is very relevant as if I lock the pot on to the burner head the pot gets get stuck on top of the burner and it is very difficult to remove, when you are dealing with boiling water can be very dangerous, at times I have had to pour the water out with the canister still attached to let the pot cool down to remove the pot. I can get around this if I do not lock the pot on.

One of the problems with the Ti Sol version is that the fins are aluminium which have been somehow welded on to a Titanium pot, this is a problem as aluminium has far better heat transfer properties than titanium, so my thinking is that if the stove is not used 100% correctly (ie; pot filled with water) the aluminium fins have trouble loosing the heat to the pot and therefore can overheat and melt, especially when trying to melt snow.

If you read the JetBoil description for the Sol, it states “In this true 4-season upright canister cooking system” as far as I am concerned if a winter stove system is designed so close to the failure level that you are unable to easily and safely melt snow in it without risk of damaging the system than it is not fit for purpose and the manufacture should at least replace the damaged stove or better still redesign the system so it is more difficult to damage.

Tony

[filterthis]

Tony,

Fair call on them being different stoves. Looks like I have been talking out of turn just like I have been criticising other people for . I didn't realise that there was so much difference between the PCS and the Sol. It is a perfect example of taking things too close to the edge to save weight. The cosy is too flimsy to be useful! Was that really worth saving a gram or two? Not being able to use the locking feature (huge safety benefit if you can) is crazy. I guess this shows the sacrifices that are made to save weight due to the perception of the PCS being a 'heavy' stove.

Truth is, I am definitely not a weight weenie and I really do not understand the obsession with 'light weight'. I will take durability, reliability and convenience every time and lightness is a bonus. A good example is my pack. I use a One Planet Sidetrack which is definitely not lightweight but will survive a hell of a lot more than I will! I can almost guarantee it will not let me down in the field. There is no way I would be happy with a piece of equipment that is operating right on the edge.

[Tony]

Hi filterthis,

Each to their own with stoves, it is important to use what you feel comfortable and are happy with. As I am getting older I need to reduce the weight I carry more, plus the lighter weight I go walking with the more I enjoy the walk.

I forgot to mention with the Sol Al stove, the orange cup that is supposed to protect the base and can be used as a cup broke the first time I removed it and is no longer usable and also the lid does not clip on properly, if I do not pack it carefully the burner and canister fall out of it, all of the said I am considering using the Sol on my next walk.

Tony

[photohiker]

I have used the Sol Al a few times, all time with plenty water in it and not on too high a flame setting and the cosy has still received some damage, when the water is boiling I am unable to hold the pot by the cosy as it is so thin and the burner/pot supports becomes very flimsy on the canister, this is very relevant as if I lock the pot on to the burner head the pot gets get stuck on top of the burner and it is very difficult to remove, when you are dealing with boiling water can be very dangerous, at times I have had to pour the water out with the canister still attached to let the pot cool down to remove the pot. I can get around this if I do not lock the pot on.

With the Ti model, you get an even flimsier cosy, but strangely, mine has not suffered charring, and I am able to handle the pot without feeling like I am getting burned. Could this be a heat transmission difference between the Al and Ti pots? I agree that the interface between the pot and the burner could be improved. Never had a problem with the supports though.

I'm a bit surprised that you are bringing out the 'not fit for use' argument. After all, Jetboil must have sold thousands of these stoves and there is a handful of very well self-publicised failures roaming the internet echo chamber. I still think Jetboil should come to the party for these failures even if they think the owner klutzed it.

What we have here is a very efficient stove that requires the user to read and execute simple instructions. Like any stove, failure is possible but because of the markedly different design and construction of the jetboil to achieve this efficiency, they need to be treated differently to a standard stove.

[etrangere]

I have the newer 2nd version of the Jeboil TI - altered pot base/fins contact area, improved locking mechanism etc
I love it, works just as well as it did on day one. Only thing I didnt like too much was the flimsy handle/cozy, it was easily fixed by ordering the cozy for the PCS version for $10 to replace it. Thicker material, sturdier handle, problem solved
I have a suspicion that 95% of the failures/issues with the Jetboil are 'pilot error' induced.

[norts]

I purchased a SolTi a few months ago, but after using it a few times I read that Jetboil had a new warranty. No snow melting, no food cooking of any kind, only water boiling or your warranty was My instructions said that you could do use it for snow melting etc. I read on BPL of these issues.
I contacted Jetboil USA about this:
I would not have purchased the SOL Ti if I had know this but just the SOL as I wish to use my Jetboil to for making soup and melting snow.
If I can no longer use the stove as advertised then this contradicts Australian Consumer Laws where a product "must be fit to for any disclosed purpose".
I am unable to take my Jetboil back to the point of sale as it was purchased interstate.

I then asked them to replace the Sol Ti with a Sol aluminium.
I received a standard cut and paste reply:
Thank you for your call / e-mail today, as the cup has become damaged it is important to discontinue use of the cup as it is no longer safe for use.
What we could do is issue you a return authorization number for you to send your entire system in for warranty evaluation. If it is found to be covered under warranty then we will replace your cup and send it back to you free of charge. If it is found that the damage arose out of misuse (damage resulting from snow melting, cooking of any foods, running the cup dry , tip over, or placing the cup on the burner empty…etc.) then we will contact you to discuss replacement options and payment.
Understand that because the cup is no longer safe for use, once it is sent in to us then we will not be able to send this cup back to you as it poses a liability.
Please review our warranty.
http://www.jetboil.com/warranty .
( alot of legal guff in here that I didnt think people needed to read)
For information about the Titanium models and water boiling only. http://shop.jetboil.com/index.php/sol-cooking-ti.html
http://shop.jetboil.com/files/sol-ti-su ... art-v4.pdf
If you would like to continue with the warranty evaluation process, we will need your full name, phone number, and US mailing address to start the process.

As you can see from the above blurb they had not read my email. My stove was still in perfect condition.

After a few more emails and me getting stonewalled I contacted S2S, the Aussie distributors (ok I know I should have contacted them first). They were very helpful and replaced the stove no questions asked and threw in a few backcountry meals as I had lost money on the deal.

Jetboil - customer service - thumbs down
Sea to Summit - customer service - thumbs up

Sorry for the long post but people should be aware, you melt your SOL TI because you were melting snow or cooking soup - no warranty.

Roger

[photohiker]

I've cooked plenty of soup in mine. No problems

Jetboil is just being careful I reckon, the ti version is clearly not as bulletproof as the al version.

Mine is out of warranty by now anyway, and seeing as it was imported from the US, I doubt I'd have much show or even bother trying to pick up warranty.

[Ent]

Hi

Thanks for the update Norts. Looks like Jetboil have finally worked out what many users have done for themselves. A Jetboil is a very poor cooking system but brilliant as a water heater.

I have been using Trangia systems, 25 and 27 and frankly they are top class for stability, efficiency and ease of use with the only wish list been a heavy weight frypan option.

I used my Solo TI on the weekend and it was rather unstable and limited in its cooking ability by comparison.

I am rather over the gram counting for general walking but it still has a place for fast and light walking with add water only meals.

Cheers

[ninjapuppet]

I'm no materials scientist, but find it strange how Titanium caldera cones can handle the inferno option to burn wood, while the aluminium version is not suitable with woo fires

http://www.traildesigns.com/stoves/caldera-cone-system


Jetboil on the other hand are indicating that their aluminum version can take higher temperatures?

[Strider]

Something to do with the thickness of material used, perhaps?

[photohiker]

I think it has to do with the heat exchanger fins on the bottom of the pot. They are made of aluminium, not titanium, and they break down in overheating situations.

[Mark F]

This is not doubt riddled with technical and terminological errors so my apologies in advance but I believe the ideas are correct. Trail Designs is right. Ti melts at 1668 deg C while Aluminium melts at 660 degrees - these values move around a bit depending on alloys etc. Flame temperatures for gas are around 2000 degrees (lots of variation) - metho much cooler but we have all seen melted Al and even glass in a fire pit. So Ti can handle much hotter conditions than Al.

The only reason an Al pot doesn't melt when on a flame stove (as opposed to a hot plate) is that the contents of the pot are absorbing the heat and preventing the metal from reaching melting point. Water is very efficient at absorbing the heat and it spreads evenly across the pot surface. Food is likely to develop hot spots when vapour bubbles form against the base when in comes close to boiling (the glup - glup sound) and the pot base at these points will not be able to pass on the heat reaching it. The base heats up too much and so the fins can't pass on the energy (less thermal gradient) so the fins get hotter.

There are two issues with the Jetboil fins. First - the fins have to get rid of enough heat to stop them melting. This requires the pot to absorb that heat very quickly and this is requires the contents of the pot to take the vast majority of it as that is where the thermal mass is. Turn the stove up high and/or have the pot contents create vapour pockets on the base of the pot and the fins melt. Secondly there is the issue of different rates of thermal expansion between the Ti pot and the Al fins. This would explain warping of the fins and breaking of the joint between the pot and the fins.

[Onestepmore]

I just read this article which is about weight and boil times with a cut down Jetboil Ti pot. Aim is to save fuel by shortening boil times and reduce bulk and therefore ease of packing in a small volume.
Does this sound too simplistic, but couldn't the first simply be achieved by reducing the amount if water you put in the pot?

(We use one of these for day and overnighters due to its convenience, but when I walk by myself I use a smaller and lighter set up. They are awesomely efficient)

http://hikelighter.com/2013/11/27/jetbo ... ification/

NB I wasn't quite sure if I should just tack this on to this thread, or put it in LWBW section. It's fine for someone to move it if appropriate.

[Mark F]

Totally simplistic and utterly wrong. When I checked the bpl thread this morning they had come to realise that they stuffed up the measurements.