quicky wrote:
Anyways, have fun with it all! Chat soon.
Jase
Kinsayder wrote:Ryan, it sounds like you've thought it through pretty well. From my understanding the Helium is a pretty sweet bag, especially coupled with the All Season. I generally head out to Fed Hut once or twice a year (not always in winter but mostly either in winter or early spring/late autumn) and relatively recently I've been finding that both my old down Paddy Pallin (not sure the rating, maybe -5) and a synthetic Snowgum (-3) have been struggling to keep me warm. So I've gotten a Western Mountaineering Antelope (-15) last month that I'll try next year. I think that I'll be fine and I'd think the same for you. Heartily recommend using Fed Hut as the Feathertop trial to get everything right. Most things are pretty similar except that the weather is wilder and the packs are heavier.
iGBH wrote:Another good option for testing out gear or experience in snow is Stirling. Closer to Melbourne than Feathertop or Bogong, and still plenty of opportunity to get away from the crowds.
ryantmalone wrote:TThey say that there is a huge amount to learn about Winter hiking, not just about gear, but those little things like how eating right will keep you warm, and so on, and you learn most of it from DOING rather than being taught by someone else.
Nuts wrote:Have you used VBL in Australia nq?
nq111 wrote:Hi ryantmalone,
Nice choice of bag!
A personally think that weight will be fine - particularly if you are carrying a few extra clothes (e.g. a light down jacket) for the odd occasion things get really cold. But you may vary. A warm winter tent will give you considerable warmth as well.
Otherwise (and I must sound like a broken record on this topic!) I suggest researching and looking into a vapour barrier liner. Even an SOL emergency bivy costs very little, weighs 80g, doubles as a space blanket / emergency bivy, and will add the most warmth for weight when used inside your sleeping bag. If you are feeling rich - go straight for a Western Mountaineering Hotsac VBL.
Excellent article on the topic here http://andrewskurka.com/how-to/vapor-barrier-liners-theory-application/
quicky wrote:
1. ensure you're hydrated
2. well fed
3. Your body is dry
4. Your down is lofting
5. You get in your bag warm...not cold
6. keep your neck and head covered and warm
7. try a table spoon of peanut butter before sleep (or oils, fats etc.)
8. keep your tent well ventilated...Australian 'cool wet' conditions make for wet conditions indeed, which may effect the lofting of your bag (along with insensible moisture loss).
9. keep your feet and hands warm (socks or liner gloves if needed)
10. learn to USE your sleeping bag...such as cinch the draw-cord hood closure as small as you can if your face gets cold! I often sleep with just my nose poking out sometimes...this makes a MASSIVE difference. Otherwise, what's the point of having a hood closure? Plus, the Marmot hood closure is very well constructed.
etc. etc.
madmacca wrote:
One easy way to add warmth is to boil water in the evening, and create your own hot water bottle.
I often think that the place to start for staying warm is not so much the sleeping bag, but in having enough insulation below you in the form of a mat. Doubling up your existing mat with a CCF can be a simple and cheap way to increase the R value in cold conditions.
ryantmalone wrote:madmacca wrote:
One easy way to add warmth is to boil water in the evening, and create your own hot water bottle.
I often think that the place to start for staying warm is not so much the sleeping bag, but in having enough insulation below you in the form of a mat. Doubling up your existing mat with a CCF can be a simple and cheap way to increase the R value in cold conditions.
I've heard about people doing this. Filling up a Nalgene with some hot water (permitting the bottle stands up to the heat!), wrapping it in a towel, and placing in the foot box.
As for insulation, I've heard of people using a foam mat under their Thermarest, or a space blanket. I'd probably carry a space blanket anyway as a safety measure.
quicky wrote:
I used to use a Nalgene as a hot water bottle...it works wonders (for me anyway, I tend to suffer cold feet)...and is really good for drying wet socks too (by placing your sock/s over the Nalgene like a condom). Another really effective place for a Nalgene/hot water bottle is up high in your thighs - the transfer of heat through to your femoral artery and lesser vasculature can be more effective, as it takes warmer blood to your feet and legs rather than trying to warm your feet up alone.
quicky wrote:
As for the insulation, using Space Blankets opens another pandoras box of interesting conversation. Remember, space blankets only 'do their best' to somewhat reduce radiant heat loss...and that is it! Yet practically, convectional and conductive heat loss play a much bigger part 'during times of physiological stress' (evaporative...not much at all in colder climates). So, if used correctly, they can be 'in part' helpful. If not used correctly, they make matters much worse by rapidly accelerating conductive heat loss. When teaching (pre-hospital science/paramedic practice, wilderness medicine), I really stress the importance of using space blankets wisely and appropriately, otherwise, they can really make matters worse....I've seen it many times. I often laugh (cringe for the patient's sake) at those shots you see on the news how people are plucked from overflowing rivers during floods...they are soaked to the core, still have their clothes on, and have a space blanket thrown around them by the paramedics or emergency staff on scene...very bad form.
I personally wouldn't bother with a space blanket under a thermarest, especially the newer NeoAir's. No doubt others prefer to, and I appreciate that. Considering the material used in the NeoAir (or even other Thermarests for that matter), it would only be doubling up on the mat's 'purpose' anyways. The dew point would be close to the under side (or even inside) of the Thermarest where the space blanket is sitting, so its ability to 'bounce back' radiant heat would be next to nothing (IMO).... by that stage there would be nothing to 'bounce back', so it becomes superfluous. I don't carry a space blanket, or see the need for one 99% of the time. But like I said, that's a whooooole new conversation in itself with heaps of other info along with it, and subject to personal preference.
....just sayin.
Enjoy.
I've given some thought to using a Z-Lite under my Thermarest if it came down to it. Heard many people use this along with a -10 bag and liner plus thermals to get through some pretty far out conditions far exceeding the capabilities of their bags. Not that I think I would need to be able to sit out conditions in the sub 20's, but for comforts sake, it'd be good to remember trips as being "comfortable" rather than "a little colder than I'd like"
Orion wrote:I have no idea whether this bag is enough for the conditions you're interested in. There are too many variables. But one thing I don't get is the requirement of ensuring you're not dehydrated, you're well fed, not tired, etc. And no sweating allowed? Wow. I fail on every single winter trip I've been on as I'm usually sweating much of the time and I'm knackered and a bit dehydrated at the end of every day.
Orion wrote:But one thing I don't get is the requirement of ensuring you're not dehydrated, you're well fed, not tired, etc.
Orion wrote:I have no idea whether this bag is enough for the conditions you're interested in. There are too many variables. But one thing I don't get is the requirement of ensuring you're not dehydrated, you're well fed, not tired, etc. And no sweating allowed? Wow. I fail on every single winter trip I've been on as I'm usually sweating much of the time and I'm knackered and a bit dehydrated at the end of every day.
So a few extra ounces in the bag is okay with me. Down is light. But ultimately, what works for you is the key thing.
quicky wrote:[The process behind the conversations is about attempting to reduce the concern to a single point variable - that being the bag, to help determine if that bag is suitable, after ensuring that Ryan has done his best to minimise the influence of those other "variables".
madmacca wrote:Down is light and warm, because it traps a lot of air in its loft. But when it gets wet, it loses most of its structure and loft (and thus also its warmth). So it is essential to keep your bag dry. Even if no external moisture gets on your bag, moisture from sweat can accumulate and significantly degrade the performance of your bag on a multi-day trip. It's normal to be tired, sweaty and dehydrated at the end of the day (heck, I'd say the first two are the hallmarks of a GOOD trip, not failure). The key is to fix these things before getting in your sleeping bag.
As for well-fed, well, digestion releases energy (and heat into the body). Also, if you are low on energy, the body starts to conserve what it's still got - but in the interests of staying warm, you want to be expending energy, not conserving it. Also, low energy and exhaustion can lead to hypothermia, and poor decision making (and this gets into a vicious circle). In such conditions even experienced skiers/walkers can make poor decisions - and poor decision making in the snow can be lethal.
Orion wrote:In my experience it isn't alway feasible to keep the bag perfectly dry. Unless you use a vapor barrier, moisture from your body will get into the bag at night. If the air is warm and dry it evaporates easily in the morning, but in wet and cool conditions the bag will accumulate moisture. Sunless days of sloppy snowfall virtually guarantee a bag that gets heavier and less effective over time. And despite being careful, low energy and exhaustion are possibilities. Plans can go awry.
For me these are reasons to start off with a little extra insulation in the winter.
But that's not to suggest that the Helium is the wrong bag for Ryan.
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