merino wool versus polypropylene

[tigercat]

What do you prefer in cold wet conditions, merino icebreaker [or similar] or poly propylene for base layers?

[Lady McGuyver]

In the bush I like merino; it keeps me warm even if it gets wet, takes a little longer to dry tho..but if I'm kayaking I prefer polypro gear. It's lighter, dries fast and doesn't seem to chafe, even in the salt water. Only drawback with polypro can be the stink-factor after a few days...which you don't tend to get with merino

[wayno]

merino holes easily, the worse it is for the thinner ones..
polypro is warmer.
i use polypro most of the time esp the really bad weather. merino i reserve for day walks, it's a lot heavier than polypro, and even more heavier when wet, i dont want the extra weight on a multi day trip

[blacksheep]

Wet and cold? Polypro. No comparison.
Everything else? Merino.

[wayno]

i see outfits like kathmandu are flogging polyester thermals, they call it thermal pro... they an be really warm, but i've found they are also very good at conducting the cold if you're struggling to keep warm

[nq111]

Wool may be more comfortable in mild conditions - e.g. urban, short strolls from the car.

For sustained wet / cold i don't think wool can beat the better synthetics for usability and effectiveness.

For other conditions wool + hot and humid is terrible - does not work (despite what you sometimes read). Wool + hot and dry can work ok but there may be better options.

[wayno]

problem is, big money has been spent marketing merino to outdoors people, a lot of people swear by it now, but as discussed it's not a panacea for all conditions... merino and smart wool ads are everywhere, how many do you see for polypro by comparison?
when polypro first came out and ordinary coarse wool was the warm baselayer of choice it was eclipsed by polypro as evryone abandoned wool. then merino got marketed as the thing to wear and the pendulum swung back in wools favour... the only thing that probably stops it being more popular is the price compared to polypro.

[MartyGwynne]

Ive been using merino/wool tee shirt and only wear thermal bottoms at night around camp wool or poly.
I wear the long sleeved wool thermal top in bed if it is cold enough (I have a natural wooly coat:))

[slparker]

I'm with wayno and NQ on this one for sure.... Sitting here in amalfi Italy right now after a day walking through the Valle dei Ferreira in my wet merino thermal t shirt and damp merino jacket I have to say that I love merino for travelling but it does have its shortcomings for walking. It just takes too long to dry and I don't agree that it 'stays warm' when wet, nothing stays warm when wet in my experience, unless you're in the tropics. To me it's all about about how quickly you can get dry, and polypropylene wins on that one.
My only caveat to this is that I sometimes wear a really thin merino when x-country skiing or walking in cold dry weather but as Wayno has stated durability is a big issue with thin merino. Perhaps the synthetic/wool hybrids available now will fix that one.

[wayno]

the speed at which the old woolen baselayers were abandoned for polypropylene showed just how superior it is at drying out. it holds far less water when wet to start with, so has a head start. there was no comparison between teh two fabrics in their drying ability. only die hards hung onto woolen base layers. anyone starting out in bushwalking might just go straight to merino with all the marketing hype and not realise the advantage of polypro.
you have wool nylon blend socks that have been around for decades
the nylon increases the durability of the socks. so why arent there wool nylon blend clothes of similar combinations for merino clothes? i'm guessing because it looses it's softness and then becomes less marketable to the mainstream population where it's really being marketed to, all the people who don't do serious bushwalking or dont exercise much at all...

[ULWalkingPhil]

Am i missing something here, what is polypro? Is it the same as polyester?

[wayno]

Am i missing something here, what is polypro? Is it the same as polyester?

polypropylene

[ULWalkingPhil]

Ok, i did some reading. Its the cheaper baselayer garments ive seen at outdoor stores, i never looked twice at them, thinking at that cheap price how could they be any good.

I own both Icebreaker and Patagonia Capilene 3 garments. Not all that impressed with the patagonia, i got suckered into all the hype I read about them. Found them awful to wear when wet, sticks to you, and a most major challenge to remove while wet.

[wayno]

yeah capilene is polyester. i think if you can't keep it warm enough it fails miserably in the warmth stakes and the wicking moisture stakes... and it aint cheap....

[ULWalkingPhil]

yeah capilene is polyester. i think if you can't keep it warm enough it fails miserably in the warmth stakes and the wicking moisture stakes... and it aint cheap....

yes, very expensive. And not what I expected. For around town and home its great, but for bushwalking, not so great. The Icebreaker is leaps and bounds better than the patagonia for me. And yes ive found the capilene did mot keep my warm when damp like the icebreaker does.

I also own a baselayer i purchased from K2Basecamp a while back for half price, I have not tried on my hikes thus far, its from Lowe Alpine, not sure what it is. Im away at the moment, back home latter today, I can check back at home what it is.

[wayno]

i suspect capilene was developed in cold dry areas....

[ULWalkingPhil]

i suspect capilene was developed in cold dry areas....

i would have to agree with you. It was an expensive mistake on my part to have invested so much into capilene. I purchased a pair of longs and two tops just before winter of last year. After one hike, I went back to my icebreaker top.

The other baselayer i have I mentioned which I have not tried thus far is Lowe Alpine DryFlo, I noticed its also polyester.

Looks like I will be investing in some polypro, Is there a brand name I should purchase? Whats the best out there? With all the sales at the moment i should pick up a good buy, but it will have to be mail order.

[wayno]

not sure i think polypro is much of a muchness, i've found one brand as good as another, there are a couple of thickneses, most of the stuff is the thinner stuff, doesnt last as long. harder to find the thicker stuff, i've only seen it in bivouac in nz, cant see it on their website. cant recall the brand "everwarm" off the top of my head.
otherwise there are tigher fitting microfleece type garments out there.

[Strider]

otherwise there are tigher fitting microfleece type garments out there.

Ive found microfleece doesn't wick sweat well at all, meaning I get cold as the result.

[wayno]

yeah a lot of the good sweat wicking fabrics are polyester, catch 22 when you're cold and wet...
people have raved about polartech powerdry micro fleece. looks like it gets the fibres running like an inward facing pile at right angles to the skin. , thats distinct from the baselayer powerdry..
its all polyester though... and i think they are using it in dry environments, its reasonably cheap

http://www.briangreen.net/2012/11/ems-p ... lover.html

i've got heavyweight polypro i picked up from a mate who used to import it ages ago. no idea if you can get it now. no brand name on it.

[blacksheep]

There are different qualities of ppro. The ppro we use for instance macpac use a worsted yarn we buy from schoeller in Switzerland. It is a spun yarn, rather than filament, and is miles ahead of any yarn from any Chinese supplier ( that I have found in 10 years looking for a better priced equivalent). The only time, in my opinion, that a polypro beats merino is in prolonged wet use. Polypro will not absorb water, so it is king for paddlesports, tramps with extensive river crossings and canyonning. But a superfine merino is my preference for pretty much any other outdoor activity.
Polyester is almost as non absorbing as ppro, and can have chemical treatments to enhance wicking, or control odour. But they eventually will wash out, and these garments get pretty pongy.

[ULWalkingPhil]

Im heading off for the Larapinta trail in June, I guess it will be cold and dry on the trail. The capilene might be perfect for me on that trail. Not so sure.

Also looking at a possible hike on the Overland track in March, as soon my new shelter arrives from the states.

[wayno]

i havent noticed where my polypro has been made that much, i've noticed schoeller on one label. i just buy it at outdoor shops that sell good quality gear. maybe i've been lucky so far. or the lack of durability might be the chinese ones cam mentions. my thick stuff is either italian designed or made , i'll have to check when i get home if i can read the label

[ULWalkingPhil]

There are different qualities of ppro. The ppro we use for instance macpac use a worsted yarn we buy from schoeller in Switzerland. It is a spun yarn, rather than filament, and is miles ahead of any yarn from any Chinese supplier ( that I have found in 10 years looking for a better priced equivalent). The only time, in my opinion, that a polypro beats merino is in prolonged wet use. Polypro will not absorb water, so it is king for paddlesports, tramps with extensive river crossings and canyonning. But a superfine merino is my preference for pretty much any other outdoor activity.
Polyester is almost as non absorbing as ppro, and can have chemical treatments to enhance wicking, or control odour. But they eventually will wash out, and these garments get pretty pongy.

Hi blacksheep, i taken a look at your website, need to check my sizing at home than place a online order for the polypro.

I own a pair of lightweight tops made from superwool, I believe its much the same as Merino. I wear during the day, dries in no time when wet and feels great to wear.

I will take a look and see what superfine Merino you have.

[Wolfix]

Mountain Designs also uses Schoeller yarn. Not sure how the longevity compares to Macpac but compared to the old Kathmandu stuff, my 4 year old MD polypro is still all in excellent condition and has even been through the dryer before (accidentally). Tiny bit pilled on the stuff that's been roughly treated.

[Wolfix]

Go with best fit and best price. Probably MP and MD are the same.

[roysta]

I have no reason to switch from the stuff off the back of those South Island sheep.
Even when wet in cold or hot conditions I'm happy with the merino.
I can't remember how often I've taken one base layer for a week or more, perfect results and no smell.
But, to each their own.

[Penguin]

merino holes easily, the worse it is for the thinner ones..

+1. Merino is comfortable wear but can make you think you have some pest in your drawers that is eating holes in your garments. Particularly the thinner ones. I have assumed that it is because many seem knitted rather than woven - one broken fibre and they unravel. Great around town - not practical hiking.

P

[blacksheep]

All these are knits. Merino is short fibres twisted into yarn, polypro is an extruded continous filament..it will be less likely to have holes. The key for merino is quality of yarn. We use a 2 ply yarn...some rather well known options use a single. It's ok, but 2 ply is more stable. But merino will hole more than synthetics, that is a concession worth making to many however..

[roysta]

that is a concession worth making to many however..

I'm prepared to make it on the "smell" equation alone.