breathability, gore tex vs event, vs neoshell vs windstopper

[wayno]

breathability, gore tex vs event, vs neoshell vs windstopper

[Hallu]

Unfortunately it's only a simple test on a new and clean membrane. Besides, the skin doesn't breathe in the way they're injecting air. They should at least do the test with jackets right after a 4-5 hour hike to see if they still breathe in the same way or if they're all clogged up. I'm also sure the membrane isn't everything. There are different types of Gore-Tex, and brands don't design all their jackets in the same way. It's too simplistic to say "let's push air through gore-tex event and neoshell". We already know the breathability of these materials. A review is more likely to make me buy this or this jacket for a certain type of use because the reviewer has actually worn it.

[wayno]

yup, its just a basic demonstration of the differences in the membranes.
i've read reviews of people wearing neoshell stating they feel it feels colder in strong cold wind compared to other types of shells. gore tex or event. similarly people have commented they feel a bit colder in event than gore tex.
generally the reviews of event and neoshell are that it is more breathable but not necessarily as much as is demsonstrated in this test and as they state in the video if you're going on a very long trip, they would advise you use gore tex because its less likely to clog up and stop breathing from dirt and body oils than air permeable membranes do...

[Hallu]

I don't know about breathing, but eVent is definitely cold yeah. I made the mistake in NZ of using only 2 merino layers + my Montane Air jacket, in downpour + wind summer conditions, and I was quite cold. For Tassie next week, I'll be also carrying a Patagonia nanopuff as a backup.

[wayno]

supposedly the extra cold comes because it lets air in through the fabric, but also the thinner the face fabric the less it can insulate... the air jacket has a pretty thin shell. , the thinner fabrics tend to allow better breathablity as well... more threads, more gaps for air to get through.
can't say i'd be too keen using a neoshell as a storm shell in cold storms... i've used its more breathable predecessor, power shield pro and struggled to stay warm in cool weather. even with three layers underneath..
my event stormshell has large front pockets. two sets of them, its three layers of event on the front.. i've been nice and warm in a cold storm with it... its a thicker fabric than the air jacket as well.

[slparker]

That's pretty interesting. I've only ever worn goretex: the old fashioned type and a newer paclite jacket. i've found the paclite to be not breathable enough for aerobic activities, but does allow the skin to dry 'through it' when you've finished. I've founf the older goretex not particularly breathable when working hard but good compared to the alternative of not wearing a jacket.
I htink the main benefit of goretex is to trap warm water (sweat) against the skin in the rain rather than allow cold rain in. I've usually found I start out with a base layer; it rains- i add a goretex jacket; i get hot, then sweat, then get cold unless I change or add another layer or keep walking (ie I rarely stop for long when walking in the rain as I have to put on another layer (getting wetter and colder in the process of taking off my jacket) and then remove the layer to keep walking (getting wet again from the rain in the process). i've recently bought a belay jacket for skiing, which i reckon would be a good over-waterproof jacket to take on and off in the rain when stopped (over the goretex jacket, not under).

The windstopper I've had more hours in, I've found the older version (as in the video) fairly unbreathable. I've tried two slightly older versions of gore windstopper that are pretty deadly in all conditions below 10 degrees (ie sweaty and cold, although admittedly still windproof). I find the properties of softshell/gore windstopper wildly overrated for aerobic activities, although admittedly great as a front panel on the chest on a pushy in winter. i have a gore softshell with removable sleeves for cycling - it's actually warmer with the sleeves off, as the sleeves trap moisture resulting in wet, chilled skin. The alternative of cool dry skin is less deadly IMHO.
I have a newer goretex AS piece that I wear cycling and x-country skiiing. it's pretty good, moderately breathable when working hard and good at releasing moisture when stopped. It won't keep you dry if you're working hard and it requires a belay jacket over the top when stopped in really cold conditions. I think some of the moisture transporting effect is due to them soaking through, therefore moisture is lost by capillary action but still resisists wind on the skin.


I have a OR mithrilite jacket that i bought for the nth hemisphere winter (although in the end did not take it with me), it's allegedly waterproof (taped seams) and breathable but I really got it for it's stretchiness and massive pit zip from armpit to hem - I'm a firm believer in breathability coming from zips, not fabric. i haven't worn it in anger yet, will try it if we ever get snow or cold weather in victoria again.
Upshot: I would like to try neoshell, I would take breathability and presumably dryness over warmth anyday, after all you could always put another layer on underneath and i really wish I'd caught on to the 'jacket over waterproof when stopped' concept before now, would have saved me some really cold miserable wet days.

[Bivouac Gary]

Interesting video. A little disappointing the intermingling of the terms breathablilty and air permeable. Always hated the term "breathability" (show me the lungs) but it is accepted to be all about vapour transfer and does not rely on air permeability. The video was all about air perm but they kept using the word breathability.

There is no doubt direct air transfer through air permeability enhances breathability as it carries moisture with it but to say Gore-tex does not "breathe" at all because air does not pass through it is to reinvent the term.

As ever it is about the right tool for the job - high air perm will be colder in some conditions but more generally breathable (depending on the mass of other factors like face fabrics and fabric quality control). Gore-tex has always been big on the 100% windproof and durably waterproof story so do not see that changing but will be interesting to see what that "test" will show with the next gen Gore-Tex Pro. The PU oleophobic layer is going away in the Pro fabrics and replaced with 2 thin PTFE layers sandwiched together. That is for the North American Fall season so will be late 2013 down here.

The video does have another issue for the consumer however. Along with the marketing hype all the companies pile on it build's expectations to a level the products just cannot perform to in the field without a pump under your jacket like they used. It is not air conditioning and high exertion will overload most fabrics in many conditions. Air perm fabrics will allow air out and moisture with it but the fabric is still a pretty solid barrier to make it through without a big pressure differential.

Like weight in tents so much focus is placed on breathability in rainwear the other attributes are often ignored (except price). Durability, design, warranties and fit for purpose are all brushed over to get to the lowest weight or highest breathability and that can lead to disappointment.

[wayno]

this is what neoshells are going for, careful because some models have a thin fleece lining in them, making them hot to wear.
http://www.gearbuyer.com/site/search.ht ... best_match

this one is a pretty good deal, without the fleece lining

http://www.backcountry.com/westcomb-shi ... uyBox=true

[wayno]

according to this review, neoshell doesnt need careful repeated washing to stay breathable like event does..
http://terrybnd.blogspot.co.uk/2012/05/ ... -lowe.html

[ULWalkingPhil]

Breathability for me is taking my jacket off and walking in the rain with just a pair of shorts, with a light top or shirtless. To hot up here for anything else, In winter I wear a Event rain jacket, but as much as they claim in breathes, nothing like walking with just a light shirt. It's only when it's cold I wear the jacket.

[wayno]

i only wish i could get away without a rainshell in the rain...

[ULWalkingPhil]

i only wish i could get away without a rainshell in the rain...

Come up here to QLD.

You'll beg for the cold.

Went climbing Mt Walsh and abseiled down it last Sunday, and it was so hot out there, We all had rain jackets, but did not put them on when it started to rain, The rain was great. But made abseiling a bit hair raising in the wet. To think about it, It's not that often I ever wear a rain jacket. We don't see much rain in winter up here. So it's very rare I do wear a jacket out hiking.

Also from what I read on delamination that some have had with the lighter eVent jackets, I'm sceptical about wearing it with a pack on. I'm looking for a more robust lighter jacket and I think I have found one. The Zpacks Cuben Rain Jacket.

[quicky]

Breathability for me is taking my jacket off and walking in the rain with just a pair of shorts, with a light top or shirtless. To hot up here for anything else, In winter I wear a Event rain jacket, but as much as they claim in breathes, nothing like walking with just a light shirt. It's only when it's cold I wear the jacket.

I generally agree with you Phill
I often hike in just a shirt once my core temp warms up and I keep my activity up...even in winter...quite often in shorts too. My jacket only comes on when absolutely necessary. I've ordered a ZPacks WPBCF rain jacket based on my usage of jackets and breathability requirements. I'll let you know how it goes!

[beachcruiser]

My rule of thumb is based on what layers you would be wearing if it wasn't raining. If you would only be wearing one layer while walking (ie t-shirt, merino, quick-dry shirt) then adding any rainshell no matter how breathable you'll feel hot and sweaty.
At a cooler temperature when you are wearing 2 layers when it's not raining then a good breathable rainshell and you're base layer should be comfortable.
Obviously once the temperature is lower and being wet in cold windy conditions may become life threatening the equation changes...

[wayno]

people can vary a lot with what they need to wear in given weather conditions,
with any new clothing like a rain shell especially if its a type of fabric you've never used before i'd make a point of wearing it around on day trips in all possible weathers before using it on overnight trips to get a feel for how it performs in the various weather conditions and how much you may have to layer up or down underneath, with experience you won't have to guess what you need to wear underneath.
with gore tex, i never had to layer up underneath when on the move.. with lightweight shells like pertex and heavierweight event i've had to layer up on occasion in colder weather.

[radson]

This is from Mr Antarctica

http://www.chockstone.org/Forum/Forum.asp?Action=DisplayTopic&ForumID=6&MessageID=24433&Replies=9#NewPost
Yeh, if it doesn't fit you the rest is irrelevant and in some cases will nullify any fabric performance.

Marketing aside, the accepted basics:
- eVent is more breathable than Gore-Tex but requires more regular cleaning and care
- Gore-Tex ProShell is pretty much as breathable as eVent, maybe more waterproof and doesn't require *quite* so much cleaning and care. But it's more expensive
- H2No has changed over the years, so comparing old and new might be pointless
- eVent is now supplied generically to garment producers and they can rename it to their product if they wish. So there are lots of garments out there with some proprietary fabric name that are really eVent.
- Gore-Tex Active first generation (18m-2yr ago) had serious waterproof problems but these were to be fixed in more recent production. It's light, not durable enough for some climbing, but essentially windproof and rainproof.
- Neoshell is good as it's basically waterproof, more breathable than Gore-Tex, plus it's stretchy, but jury is out on durability and some other things. Opinions vary. It too has changed and now comes in a slightly insulated version we should see in shops next year.
- Gore Paclite is waterproof but less breathable than ProShell or eVent. When it came out it was more breathable than Gore-Tex 3 Layer or whatever that one was that came after 3 Layer and preceded ProShell.
- North Face Hyvent has appeared in various forms so it's impossible to compare it to something else because you don't really know what it is.
- Pertex Shield is interesting but I've not tried it - light, thin, supposedly waterproof but not sure how breathable. Cheaper than Gore.

[wayno]

pertex is at least as good as gore tex from my experience. staff at bivouac shop said they have fewer complaints about pertex performance and failure than gore tex.

[Strider]

staff at bivouac shop said they have fewer complaints about pertex performance and failure than gore tex.

Perhaps because its cheaper and that people expect less of it to begin with?

[wayno]

i doubt that , you're still paying a couple of hundred at least for pertex waerproof clothes...
most of it is 2.5 layer, and they sell a lot of pertex stuff from outdoor research, with the cheaper price i'd expect them to sell more of it than gore tex. i've got overtrousers and theres no damage to the membrane after numerous uses... i've got a paclite hat and that membrane shows damage a lot more easily. although the 3 layer gore tex should be more robust it's hard to tell if they are having less negative feedback because they are selling less of the more expensive 3 layer gore tex....

[blacksheep]

@4.40...100% agree

[wayno]

i tried the new 2.5 layer event DVL in the rain in the weekend, it wasnt too bad... fabric wetted out a bit and it got a bit damp inside, was still pretty preathable. wasnt an excessive amount of sweat buildup. performed better than a lot of other shells i've tried without vents. although the dwr isnt as good as some. its a westcomb focus lightweight design, no venting, i'm not intending to use it as a stormshell, more for when theres more moderate amounts of rain,
it was drying out nicely inside when the rain eased off. i kept it zipped up for a while to see what would happen.
on a dry windy day i've been unable to overload it with sweat on an uphill climb even when i'm sweating... breathes better than anything else i've tried, havent tried neoshell.

[wayno]

http://www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-ge ... brane.html
The iconic brand Gore-Tex is under siege from newcomers who want a piece of the billion-dollar market for waterproof-breathable fabrics. The battle is both wonky and intense, complete with arcane science, trade secrets, industry flame wars, and confidential government-run investigations on two continents

[wayno]

comparative review in the field of gore tex active shell vs neoshell vs event 2.5 DVL
he states neoshell is noticeably more breathable
active shell garments are the most breathable of the gore tex shells
event dvl is 20 to 30 percent more breathable than 3 layer event

http://coldthistle.blogspot.co.nz/2013/ ... focus.html

[wayno]

you look at the rab neostretch neoshell jackets, price has come right down on it, i'm guessing because it's not shifting, various online retailers are having closeout sales on neoshell jackets.
there were a lot of favourable reviews of the jacket and its breathability.. but i guess only a certain percentage of people can or will leap at the new technology, some will stick with the tried and trusted till the new technology has been round long enough to prove it's durability
subsequent models have focused on going more lightweight and stripped down design.
neoshell will loose its breathability advantage married to a heavier fabric.
the westcomb shift is 340gm or 12oz..
going the lightweight route for most of the jackets using one technology opens it up to the issue that a fair percentage of the product is in the lightweight fragile category, and more prone to damage and a short lifespan compared to heavier duty garments , so it may well in future be likely to be written off as not being durable enough, when its not the membrane thats the issue tis teh face gfabric the manufacterers have married it with
you've got westcomb putting out event jackets weighing from 300gm up to 750gm or 26oz
rab and macpac also put out a range of weights in event, they each put out a model weighing 800g, or 28oz
although all the weight gain isnt entirely to do with heavier fabric, big pockets. pit zips. and heavier zips soak up some of the extra weight