Mid Layer

[DannyS]

I'm trying to find a mid layer that is warmer than a polartec 100 weight without too much weight penalty, I'll be wearing a merino base layer and was told that merino on merino is the best combination for warmth, probably a 260 weight icebreaker jacket. I have read elsewhere that merino is not as good as synthetic as a mid layer, does anyone have experience with this?
As for weight, I'd like to keep the garment weight at or below 350grams if that were possible?
Thanks.

[Moondog55]

Best bang for buck is a Pertex windbreaker over a cheap merino jumper, warmest is a loosely knit real Cashmere sweater ditto, an alternative is something like the Patagonia Nanopuff pullover. Honestly tho it is hard to beat 100 weight Polartec

[wayno]

columbia omniheat 360 fleece, great fit. has the aluminium dots on the inside to boost heat retention...
or a primaloft jacket.
another option is a decent weight vest, primaloft , or i've got a monntain designs fleece vest. less likely to overheat in it. throw a shell over it and it will do you in a lot of cold conditions

[forest]

Merino is great but get those 2 layers of it wet, I mean drenched etc and it will take you ages to dry it off. Plus it weigh's a tonne when wet.
I can't speak from first hand experience with 260wt merino but wouldn't that be similar warmth to 100wt fleece anyway.
I'm a grid fleece fan for midlayers as it dries quickly if wet and is still warm if wet too. I have found for me anything more than a thin mernio baselayer and 100wt gridfleece too hot when active, either that or it's under 0°C and windy. My windshirt on the other hand is a great item over a baselayer for cold active wear.

You could look at a Arcteryx Atom LT pullover. I have one on order but haven't recieved / tried it yet. Primaloft is pretty nice stuff. The Atom LT has breathable side panels for improved venting over a solid shelled primaloft jacket.
I have a Macpac Pulsar which is a lightweight hooded jacket with primaloft fill. It's nice but I wouldn't class it as a midlayer, More of an insulating layer.

[DannyS]

columbia omniheat 360 fleece, great fit. has the aluminium dots on the inside to boost heat retention...
or a primaloft jacket.
another option is a decent weight vest, primaloft , or i've got a monntain designs fleece vest. less likely to overheat in it. throw a shell over it and it will do you in a lot of cold conditions

Wayno I was thinking of a primaloft but wasn't sure if it would be prone to overheating or of it's ability to breathe, do you have experience with primaloft as a mid layer?

[DannyS]

Merino is great but get those 2 layers of it wet, I mean drenched etc and it will take you ages to dry it off. Plus it weigh's a tonne when wet.
I can't speak from first hand experience with 260wt merino but wouldn't that be similar warmth to 100wt fleece anyway.
I'm a grid fleece fan for midlayers as it dries quickly if wet and is still warm if wet too. I have found for me anything more than a thin mernio baselayer and 100wt gridfleece too hot when active, either that or it's under 0°C and windy. My windshirt on the other hand is a great item over a baselayer for cold active wear.

You could look at a Arcteryx Atom LT pullover. I have one on order but haven't recieved / tried it yet. Primaloft is pretty nice stuff. The Atom LT has breathable side panels for improved venting over a solid shelled primaloft jacket.
I have a Macpac Pulsar which is a lightweight hooded jacket with primaloft fill. It's nice but I wouldn't class it as a midlayer, More of an insulating layer.

I'm not familiar with grid fleece, which brands should I be looking at?
I've had an interest in working with windshirts for a while but haven't taken that step, which shirt a you using?

[wayno]

no, but you're right about the risk of overheating and sweat if you're wearing anything with a shell fabric, its a potential issue. i've had enough problem with windfleeces building up moisture underneath
theres a new synthetic called "alpha" by polartec coming out thats a more breathable synthetic jacket from a variety of companies

http://www.cotswoldoutdoor.com/polartec-alpha

[forest]

I use one of these.
http://melanzana.com/catalog/product_in ... ucts_id/34
I live in it all winter, very comfortable. I think Kathmandu have a gridfleece range too.
And I have a Montbell Hooded windshirt which is very light (Tachyon Anorak)
Montane do good winshirts too. The featherlite Smock is nice, I had one before the Montbell. Can get them cheap on ebay.
They have lighter models too.

[wayno]

yeah kathmandu have grid fleece,, i'm normally a medium but had to buy the small . the mediums are baggy

[DannyS]

I use one of these.
http://melanzana.com/catalog/product_in ... ucts_id/34
I live in it all winter, very comfortable. I think Kathmandu have a gridfleece range too.
And I have a Montbell Hooded windshirt which is very light (Tachyon Anorak)
Montane do good winshirts too. The featherlite Smock is nice, I had one before the Montbell. Can get them cheap on ebay.
They have lighter models too.

One of the shops here has the featherlite on 50% off so I'll grab it and give it a go.

[nq111]

The suggestions to add a wind shirt are clever.

Otherwise - a light down or primaloft sweater will be best warmth for weight insulation. However down is not really suited to active wear.

[wayno]

theres also the synthetic hybrid option
looks like the nano puff design has changed
the bottom one is probably the recent design

http://www.gearbuyer.com/products/patag ... -mens.html

http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/men ... 3321-0-512

[DannyS]

theres also the synthetic hybrid option
looks like the nano puff design has changed
the bottom one is probably the recent design

http://www.gearbuyer.com/products/patag ... -mens.html

http://www.patagonia.com/us/product/men ... 3321-0-512

Wayno I was looking at the Montane Fury as a mid layer, it looks like its a mix of micro fleece and microlight for wind resistance, whats your thoughts on this?

[wayno]

click on the fabric tab for the fabric specs
http://www.montane.co.uk/range/men/soft ... ury-jacket

[Moondog55]

I haven't yet seen one of the hybrid jackets, is the Nanopuff sewn over the R2 fleece or is it a substitute for it in those places?
I could see the point if it was an overlayer but otherwise cost would have me choose something else

[DannyS]

click on the fabric tab for the fabric specs
http://www.montane.co.uk/range/men/soft ... ury-jacket

So in your experience what do you think of this mix of fabrics? Could it work?

[wayno]

this is their explanation of the main fabrics
"Designed for fast mountain assaults"
POLARTEC® Classic Micro has a superb warmth to weight ratio
DRYACTIV Stretch under the arms and across the shoulders for stretch and moisture management
reasonable weight 350gm
nothing wrong with using it for walking, depends if you want to pay the asking price....

[nq111]

Something like this? http://www.departmentofgoods.com/montbell-thermawrap-bc-insulation-jacket-mens

[wayno]

if he's a small or extra large
i'd only go a synthetic vest to minimise the moisture buildup and overheating when on the move

[DannyS]

Something like this? http://www.departmentofgoods.com/montbell-thermawrap-bc-insulation-jacket-mens

Thats super cheap, I am an XL size. Not sure if it would suit my purpose but for the price worth considering for other applications.

[Moondog55]

Just putting a lightweight windbarrier over the layers adds the best warmth for weight. It has the drawback of being too warm at times as Wayno has mentioned.
Breaking the insulation up into separate layers of dry still air is very effective, also one of the cheapest ways to increase the effectiveness of clothing you may already own.

http://www.backpackinglight.com.au/stor ... ck/dp/4922
A loosely knitted merino, cashmere or Polartec sweater between two of these would be very warm and at the same time incredibly flexible way to dress

Mallory dressed like this on Everest in the 1920s, we seem to have forgotten a lot, but this is why the lined lightweight Polartec garment work well and why the Nanopuff is so effective ( also if designed properly they can be reversed to put the windproof layer on the outside, I owned a very good Katmandu pullover that was cut well and did this ( now claimed by eldest daughter) you know it's good if they stop making it.

[Joomy]

The Thermawrap is one of the warmest lightest options that will also dry (fairly) quickly when wet. Other options listed here (Atom LT, Pertex+sweater) are definitely not sub-350g.

[Moondog55]

Joomy there are some VERY lightweight cashmere sweaters out there IF you can afford them, mine tho is a thick one and yes 380grams in XXL. Weight goes up very quickly one you get over medium sizes, so when you make comparisons it really should be in the size you wear.
I'm sure I could save at least 5 kilos [Winter clothes] if I was a medium and not an XL /-/ XXL in most clothing
My Polartec 100 shirt in XL weighs 225g but isn't anywhere near as warm.
Totally different cuts so difficult to give a real comparison, I wear the Cashmere as underwear in -20C and below and the other on days like today when the heating isn't on.
The Mohair jumper is 440g but as warm as I would need to wear [ it is almost 25mm thick] and needs the windproof layer to be effective. Really it is hard to beat the new technical fibers and very high lofting down in the warmth for weight comparison

[DannyS]

Just putting a lightweight windbarrier over the layers adds the best warmth for weight. It has the drawback of being too warm at times as Wayno has mentioned.
Breaking the insulation up into separate layers of dry still air is very effective, also one of the cheapest ways to increase the effectiveness of clothing you may already own.

http://www.backpackinglight.com.au/stor ... ck/dp/4922
A loosely knitted merino, cashmere or Polartec sweater between two of these would be very warm and at the same time incredibly flexible way to dress

Mallory dressed like this on Everest in the 1920s, we seem to have forgotten a lot, but this is why the lined lightweight Polartec garment work well and why the Nanopuff is so effective ( also if designed properly they can be reversed to put the windproof layer on the outside, I owned a very good Katmandu pullover that was cut well and did this ( now claimed by eldest daughter) you know it's good if they stop making it.

I just purchased the featherlight smock yesterday Moondog55, it's the first wind shirt I've owned and I'll be keen to give it a workout soon. Could you explain a little more regarding breaking the insulation up into dry still air please?

[DannyS]

The Thermawrap is one of the warmest lightest options that will also dry (fairly) quickly when wet. Other options listed here (Atom LT, Pertex+sweater) are definitely not sub-350g.

Joomy have you used this garment at all? I was worried about overheating but I see these have the fabric stretch panels, was wondering how much they assisted in ventilating while active?

[Moondog55]

It's about removing the influence of moving air.
In still air we have a "pocket" of warm air about 2 to 3 mm thick bound to our skin but even the slightest breeze can disturb this layer of air. So if we are moving or the wind is blowing we have to keep reheating this skin layer of warm air, so putting the windproof layer over the inner layers of clothing; say a comfort layer of silk weight or the lightest of the merino underwear can keep this skin layer intact and we don't waste energy in its constant replacement.
In effect then this is a layer 6mm thick, if we add a lightweight open layer over this it is itself under the influence of the wind, this is good if we are working hard as the heat is removed quickly but bad if the conditions are cold and we need to preserve this heat, adding a second windproof top traps the air inside the second layer of insulation and slows down the heat loss and the combined weight of the two wind garments can therefore be warmer, but in my opinion should be more versatile than an insulated jacket as the mid layer can be chosen to suit how cold it is.
I have used my vapour barrier shirt in this manner when it was really cold.
I'm guessing here that perhaps it will work better with a pullover closest to the body and a venting jacket on the outside
I hope I have explained this properly if not I think Wayno can help

[phan_TOM]

I just purchased the featherlight smock yesterday

I've had one of these for a few years now and even though I wouldn't wear it walking through scrub or near a fire it's a great layer for slipping over a shirt or jumper to boost the warmth, especially for its negligible pack size and weight. Mine lives in my day / work pack and goes on most walks with me.

I posted the following not long after I purchased it and had a chance to try it out in cool windy conditions & it's still winner in my opinion. I Climbed Bald Rock out near Tenterfield mid-winter 2010, it was 6ºC and blowing a gale. We stopped for a snack on top and I pulled it on over a light fleece jumper while we were admiring the view, the difference in warmth was marked. It stopped the wind robbing any heat and let the fleece do its thing keeping me warm, I was surprised seeing how light my clothing was, it shows how well clever layering can work. The material feels nice and silky and there is a little garage for the zipper to stop it digging into the underside of your chin or catching on a beard.

[DannyS]

It's about removing the influence of moving air.
In still air we have a "pocket" of warm air about 2 to 3 mm thick bound to our skin but even the slightest breeze can disturb this layer of air. So if we are moving or the wind is blowing we have to keep reheating this skin layer of warm air, so putting the windproof layer over the inner layers of clothing; say a comfort layer of silk weight or the lightest of the merino underwear can keep this skin layer intact and we don't waste energy in its constant replacement.
In effect then this is a layer 6mm thick, if we add a lightweight open layer over this it is itself under the influence of the wind, this is good if we are working hard as the heat is removed quickly but bad if the conditions are cold and we need to preserve this heat, adding a second windproof top traps the air inside the second layer of insulation and slows down the heat loss and the combined weight of the two wind garments can therefore be warmer, but in my opinion should be more versatile than an insulated jacket as the mid layer can be chosen to suit how cold it is.
I have used my vapour barrier shirt in this manner when it was really cold.
I'm guessing here that perhaps it will work better with a pullover closest to the body and a venting jacket on the outside
I hope I have explained this properly if not I think Wayno can help

Thank you I think I understand what your saying, but then why is it I never hear of anyone using two wind shirts? If I understand you correctly that is what you are saying right? One over a base layer and a second over what would have been the mid layer, is that right?

[DannyS]

I just purchased the featherlight smock yesterday

I've had one of these for a few years now and even though I wouldn't wear it walking through scrub or near a fire it's a great layer for slipping over a shirt or jumper to boost the warmth, especially for its negligible pack size and weight. Mine lives in my day / work pack and goes on most walks with me.

I posted the following not long after I purchased it and had a chance to try it out in cool windy conditions & it's still winner in my opinion. I Climbed Bald Rock out near Tenterfield mid-winter 2010, it was 6ºC and blowing a gale. We stopped for a snack on top and I pulled it on over a light fleece jumper while we were admiring the view, the difference in warmth was marked. It stopped the wind robbing any heat and let the fleece do its thing keeping me warm, I was surprised seeing how light my clothing was, it shows how well clever layering can work. The material feels nice and silky and there is a little garage for the zipper to stop it digging into the underside of your chin or catching on a beard.

I'm happy to hear it worked for you, I'm heading out on a 4-5 week thru hike soon and looking forward to trying something new.

[wayno]

its about trapping air in between the layers, tahts what the insulative layers are doing trapping the air to let your body warm it up along with the fabric and holding a certain amount of that air in place depending on the breathability.. layering just adds an extra layer of trapped air, gives you finer control over hot thick the insulation is which is why you dont go straight to teh super puffy wuffy michelin man clothes...