Should there be a group size limit in the Western Arthurs?

[Ent]

If they can run guided groups up Mt Everest than they can do it on the WAs.
JamesMc

And that works so well with the mountain turned in a waste dump or morgue!

The trouble is tour groups are on tight time lines and the WA is not the place to be pushing the clock. Sure in summer more often than not an issue for WAs. When you have people claiming to be fit struggling up Marions I wonder how they would go in the WA with the same lack of realization of what is required. Fifteen hour day and hauling in at 7.00pm is cutting it fine. We helped out in a rescue and then assisted the remainder of the party to Lake Haven and arrived around 7.30pm with sun down at 8.15pm and I for one would not like to have done the final drop down by headlamp.

With a tour group there are certain ratios and numbers that make it possible. Eight sound about right but that is too many for the current infrastructure. Who pays for the infrastructure to deal with this? Waste removal and platform construction and maintenance is not cheap. Even Chapman is concerned of the effect of erosion and this might make the current track impassible.

As for one tour company. Not impressed that they hired out a satellite phone that did not work! That mob seems to be cowboys to me.

Regards

[wander]

If we look back at the WA permit thread the advice from Parks was despite guided tours numbers through the WA are flat. So theoretically the infrastructure is there.

I was reminded during convo last night about rudeness in camp and all the worst occasions were groups of older walkers (1 was a club and another was a group possibly from NZ who do a Tas walk each year at the same time for some reason, I cannot remember the details of the others) who came in and just set up to suite themselves without any by your leave. And this happened on the Overland, South Coast and South West Cape tracks. Our conclusion was they did not even realise they were being rude. By contrast a school group rolled up after the rudest group and could not have been more polite or considerate. The result is we bent over backwards to help them fit in and dry out before tikkering off to our distant and quiet tent platform.

[MJD]

Good to (kinda) meet you guys

Nice to meet you guys. Well guy & gal. I didn't realise it who it was until doogs made a comment sometime later. I've got a shot of you two sitting down on the flat stretch just after Pegasus that was probably taken about the same time that you took the photo that you mentioned. Hope the rest of your trip was good.

[Nuts]

I had a look mjd and at that distance neither of you hung around on top long enough for me to get the camera steady for a decent shot. I think McG got one, if so i'ts likely a good one...
I'd imagine the said rock heap was a bit closer (to us)

We had an excellent few days thanks. The most rugged stuff in the best weather. We met a few groups along the way, you two were the last.

It's been 14yrs since i was last down there, rambling cross country on the plains was an oddly surreal experience. A highlight that I really didn't expect. Little islands in small stands of unburnt trees and pockets of scrub ridiculously full of life.

[Nuts]

[durks]

If they can run guided groups up Mt Everest than they can do it on the WAs.

I'd prefer both weren't happening. Anything is 'possible' of course but, in this case, somebody must have given the okay for commercial operators in the Western Arthurs. Why?

Generally, the problem comes from big groups, whatever their provenance. I never understand why people feel the need to go mob-handed in the bush/mountains/any place else. Personally I take the opposite approach, and would agree with the English climber Doug Scott: "I don't object to other people going to the mountains. I just don't want to meet them."

[north-north-west]

... agree with the English climber Doug Scott: "I don't object to other people going to the mountains. I just don't want to meet them."

That has just joined my favourite quotes list. Thank you.

[Nuts]

The words of a true mountaineer.. i think i relate to sherpas a whole lot better

[mikethepike]

The question of both group size and tents struck me when I was on the WAs a few years ago and it seems to me that the question of commercial groups is secondary to the question of maximum group size. The only effect that a maximum group size set by P&W (just supposing) might have on commercial groups would be to 'allow' only the wealthiest people to go there in a guided party. I think there really needs to be a maximum size for parties on the WA's but I see no sensible way it could be policed. Instead people would have to be made to feel that large groups are just as bad as leaving rubbish behind. A kind of control by peer pressure. Anyway in such an environment, doesn't big group size counter the experience of being there in the first place? " I'm going to this really isolated wild place with 20 others!" Clubs are probably the main offenders for big group sizes and I think that the State Walking Federations should encourage their member clubs to have a policy on restricting group size on walks to wild places with restricted camping places. Personally I think that group size should be no more than half the platform camp capacity. But that brings up the other side of the question - the tent.

The tent platform I was on at Haven Lake was probably less than 3m x 3m as my tent only just fit on it lengthways once attached to the nails, I think there area only 4 platforms there and the guided group had a party of 8.

Can in fact the tent platforms in the WAs each take two double tents? Can someone give us a definitive answer on that or maybe it depends on the design/ make of the double tent? Fitting 2 single tents to a platforms takes a fair bit of juggling but much of that is due to lack of easy tie down places (from memory from 6 years ago) -it would be just that much harder with double tents. If the platforms are just that bit too small for two double tents, then as a previous writer said, that's bad planning.

It seems to me that the modern trend is for bushwalkers to use single tents (and smaller double tents for single use). In contrast, I think that the commercial groups almost invariably use double tents. In that case, if 2 double tents fit a platform, a commercial group of 8 walkers would take up as many platforms as only 4 'independent' walkers using single tents. Yes and I am a single tent user as I mainly solo walk but I have joined the trend to solo tents for use even on club walks. You only have to look at many bush-walking clubs - apart from 'couples', everyone seems to have a single person tent these days.

[MJD]

I'd be very surprised if you could get two double tents on the platforms at Haven Lake. My single person tent took up more than half of the platfrom and that was with the pole just hanging off the edge. The latecomer who squeezed on next to me certainly didn't have as much room as he wanted. It's a pity because the platforms only need to be wider by about 50cms.

EDIT: Don't know if all the platforms are the same size, but my comment certainly applies to two of them.

[Ent]

Hi

At Haven Lake the groups managed two two man tents per platform but could not manage the three that they had achieved on other sites' platforms.

I suppose the skill of the user and tent design makes a huge difference. A few solo single hoop designs are a lot wider than a few tunnel multi person tents so some lateral thinking is required.

Cheers

[mikethepike]

At Haven Lake the groups managed two two man tents per platform but could not manage the three that they had achieved on other sites' platforms.

That's good going and it's good to know this but I'll reckon that some ..a lot?.. of groups mightn't achieve this. I probably need more practice. Re tent design, I can think of one solo tent that probably takes up as much space as many doubles - the MacPac Microlight.

[Taurë-rana]

This whole thread rather puts me off going to the WA's. I just don't like camping in the wilderness with lots of people. In the same way when I was last at Mt Anne and saw the hordes doing the Circuit I was pleased that I did it 20 years ago.
Re tour groups, I travelled around Oz in a 4WD for two and a half years soon after I was married with my now ex-husband, and we had trouble then with a lot of the tour groups who believed that they had the right to the campsites and that "tourists shouldn't be here so early" (in the Kimberley in April). They just believed that they had a God given right to do as they pleased, so it has left me with a fairly jaundiced view of tour operators ever since. Perhaps tour groups should not be allowed in areas that are unable to deal with large numbers of people, and there probably should be a limit on party size anyway, and or sadly, a permit system. Or just ban anyone who doesn't live in Tasmania...

[ILUVSWTAS]

Or just ban anyone who doesn't live in Tasmania...

Harsh, but fair. Maybe just charge them extra....

Only been to the WA's twice, once in Nov. and once in March. saw nobody on the range in Nov. and one single group in March. It's not an overcrowded place.... yet

[mikethepike]

I've just come back from a month in Tassie and there seems to be a fair bit of doom and gloom talk in the Tas. press over finances. With tourism ranked as Tassies' biggest money earner, perhaps locals should be careful before shooing away outsiders (and in March I met as many overseas visitors as mainlanders (spell check wonders if I mean 'salamanders'!). I did read somewhere the once said "These bushwalkers come over here with a $5 note and a single shirt and they go back not having changed either!" Must have been a long time ago. I spent heaps when not actually in the uncrowded hills during March.

[doogs]

I've just come back from a month in Tassie and there seems to be a fair bit of doom and gloom talk in the Tas. press over finances. With tourism ranked as Tassies' biggest money earner, perhaps locals should be careful before shooing away outsiders (and in March I met as many overseas visitors as mainlanders (spell check wonders if I mean 'salamanders'!). I did read somewhere the once said "These bushwalkers come over here with a $5 note and a single shirt and they go back not having changed either!" Must have been a long time ago. I spent heaps when not actually in the uncrowded hills during March.

As a Tasmanian resident who works in the hospitality industry I completely agree with you, in fact we need more visitor to sustain our flailing economy.
Here's a controversial idea I have just come up with so feel free to pour scorn and abuse me (in a friendly manner of course ); With recent talk of mining possibly being allowed in our reserves why not let it go ahead as long as the mining companies put some money into our Parks and Reserves such as building new tracks etc. This would create new jobs in the mining sector, a bit of work for the building of the tracks and hopefully would promote tourism with an increase in new visitors and return visitors. Our state does need more cash flow with the decrease in forestry we can't stick our heads in the sand and expect handouts from the federal government.
Back to the topic- when on the WArthurs we either passed or saw 5 other groups, I think the tent platforms either need to be increased in size or number and yes the group size should be set at a limit of 5 or 6. And, or a permit system should be put in place. It does get some pretty poor weather down there and safety of the people on the range is quite important especially if they know that there already is infrastructure in place (which can lead to a false sense of security).

[stepbystep]

I once read a logline - "Tasmania, 150 years of recession, and loving it"

Doogs we could use the cheapskate bushwalkers as slave labour in the mines!

I spent 5 days in the Warthurs last March and only shared a site for 1 night with 3 people, it was brilliant!

[mikethepike]

Here's a controversial idea I have just come up with so feel free to pour scorn and abuse me (in a friendly manner of course ); With recent talk of mining possibly being allowed in our reserves why not let it go ahead as long as the mining companies put some money into our Parks and Reserves such as building new tracks etc. This would create new jobs in the mining sector, a bit of work for the building of the tracks and hopefully would promote tourism with an increase in new visitors and return visitors.

I'm surprised this didn't get a response but perhaps readers think it is off the original topic. But I think that Tasmania maybe could do with more walking tracks. Restoring and upgrading the Penguin to Waldheim track comes to mind. The question of more tracks (and I know about the Tasman Peninsular Track upgrade) deserves to be a new thread I think but I'll leave that initiative to one of the locals. I'm North Island. Thanks.

[mikethepike]

The question of more tracks (and I know about the Tasman Peninsular Track upgrade) deserves to be a new thread I think but I'll leave that initiative to one of the locals. I'm North Island. Thanks.

I've just noticed that this question has been indirectly addressed on stepbystep's "Design your own walk' thread started a week or so ago and there are ideas there for possible new walk trails.

[north-north-west]

I spent 5 days in the Warthurs last March and only shared a site for 1 night with 3 people, it was brilliant!

Five others at Cygnus, and a different group of five joined me for the third night at High Moor but I left them at the base of the first gully the next morning (I think they gave up there). Otherwise the only people I saw in ten (or was it eleven?) days were the three couples heading out from Scott's Peak on the final morning.
It does make the place even more special when you have it to yourself.

[Taurë-rana]

Perhaps the best thing to do is check when the walking clubs and tour companies have trips booked there, and avoid them.

[ryantmalone]

Here's my thoughts for guided walks:

1. Limit groups to no more than 3 people and two tents.
2. Guided groups have access to a specific number of platforms, which must be booked, not expected to be available
3. Just like the OT places limits on the number of walkers that can depart each day, there should be a similar limit on the number of walkers that depart for the WA's, or other similar vulnerable areas (EA's, Frenchies, OT, SWT, etc etc).

That said, the only real problem that I have ever had with another person in the bush was with a track worker on Mt Bogong just after the last fires, who abused me for working for a large outdoor retailer (which he didn't agree with for some reason) and because he believed I was smoking Pot at Bivouac Hut (which I most certainly wasn't, and do not!). I remember contacting Parks Victoria about this, and never heard anything back from them. Really put a stain on what should have been a great day.

I just think that attitudes in general, no matter who you are, need to be maintained. I say the traditional "G'day!" to everyone I pass on all tracks I walk, and never have too little time to stop and have a chat about where I've been and where they have been. I don't do it because I have to, but because I want to, because I've got a shared love with everyone who I share a track with, and if respect is shared amongst everyone, regardless of how much of a bad day you have had, it just makes the whole experience much more worthwhile.

[biggbird]

Digging up an old thread, but after seeing a group of 7 and a group of 9 leaving Scott's Peak for the WAs a day after another group of 7 had left, I think it's worth noting that the issue obviously isn't getting much better!

I agree with a lot of the people in here, I couldn't fathom doing a trip like that with so many people, I think it would detract from the experience. I went with my partner, and we ended up walking with a lovely couple from SE Queensland for pretty much the duration of the trip. I was glad at times for having a couple of other people around, but boy was I even more glad that it was only a couple when I saw those numbers heading in!

Hard to say what needs to be done, as I really don't want it to have to go to a quota system, but it may be that that's what's necessary. Or, as others have said, build a little more infrastructure, which then decreases the wilderness value of the walk... Not an easy issue!

[stepbystep]

I don't agree with group sizes of more than 5 or 6 fullstop. I guess the OLT is the exception if they've booked in. If I ran into a group of 9 I'd definitely give them a piece of my mind, pack up and find somewhere else to pitch.

I know of a group of 14 heading into the POW's this season led by the states most seasoned walkers. The mind boggles when some of our most experienced do such things...

[biggbird]

Yeah, had heard of that trip too SBS, though one wonders whether it will end up actually being 14 or not with inevitable last minute pullouts etc. Still, the chances of meeting any other groups at all on the PoW are much smaller than the WAs at least!

[stepbystep]

Yeah, had heard of that trip too SBS, though one wonders whether it will end up actually being 14 or not with inevitable last minute pullouts etc. Still, the chances of meeting any other groups at all on the PoW are much smaller than the WAs at least!

Several areas simply would struggle to sustain that many people. We had serious water and tent space issues in some sites with only 5...and what if they did happen upon another group? It could be dangerous. And then there is the impact on a sensitive trackless environment. They should know better.

EDIT: Anyhoo, sorry back to The Arthurs....Perhaps a short 'quota' season from December to February?

[Scottyk]

Yeah, had heard of that trip too SBS, though one wonders whether it will end up actually being 14 or not with inevitable last minute pullouts etc. Still, the chances of meeting any other groups at all on the PoW are much smaller than the WAs at least!

Several areas simply would struggle to sustain that many people. We had serious water and tent space issues in some sites with only 5...and what if they did happen upon another group? It could be dangerous. And then there is the impact on a sensitive trackless environment. They should know better.

EDIT: Anyhoo, sorry back to The Arthurs....Perhaps a short 'quota' season from December to February?

Quota system sounds reasonable but then other questions arise about how to administer it etc.
Maybe an online register of trips. Register group size, date leaving and planned route, then others could look on the web to see if there was going to be room for them to leave on a certain day? Not quite as regimented as the OLT as there would be no cap on numbers but it would allow people to plan there departure date to avoid bottlenecks. Just an idea

[Old Fart]

Greetings and a happy new year to those who walk,

..Perhaps a short 'quota' season from December to February?

While it is one answer, having the quota system would pose problems on the range in terms of having it enforced and more problematically encouraging / forcing / requiring people to "move on" when conditions are downright dangerous. Im sure it would come to pass the powers that be would have "a small administration charge" and like the OLT system, the time frame would creep out and encourage more people to go off season in less than ideal conditions. At the same time it is a fragile, special place that should not have the large groups setting off at once - otherwise it will get trashed. Those experienced enough to attempt this walk should know better and appreciate how fragile such areas are The group of 14

heading into the POW's this season led by the states most seasoned walkers

does make the mind boggle - do they think the minimal impact or whatever parks are calling these days only applies to the lesser people in lesser areas ???? if the "seasoned walkers " are setting this example then what hope do others have , ???? hope the yabby holes are full if not they are in for a world of self induced pain..........

Anyhow back on topic from my experience on the WA I would not like to be the poor bugger doing the guiding- dangerous territory, average weather, and potentially inexperienced groups - it would not be fun.

Cheers and seasons greetings from the old fart

[baeurabasher]

I don't agree with group sizes of more than 5 or 6 fullstop. I guess the OLT is the exception if they've booked in. If I ran into a group of 9 I'd definitely give them a piece of my mind, pack up and find somewhere else to pitch.

I know of a group of 14 heading into the POW's this season led by the states most seasoned walkers. The mind boggles when some of our most experienced do such things...

I know. I heard about this through a friend in the LWC recently. I agree. a large group on this range lacks the respect the leader SHOULD get. They have they're own agendas and I guess dont care. It's not about meeting other walkers, as SBS says it is a range that suffers at the hands of people, and a group this size WILL have issues.


A similar group did the Provis hills, might not be too many concerned about a large group in that area though?

Im not yet convince3d the WA'S need a permit system. It's busier at times of the year, but i've been through there more than once and never seen another soul.

[tigercat]

I think a group of 6 is maximum for remoter areas, 4 preferable. Kinder to the environment, other walkers and providing a better experience group members