Removal of Stone Fire Circles

[puredingo]

I don't know about that Tom, I think I'd much rather see a cairn than, say, a torn up ccf mat, maxi shield or old tyre.

But really the question is what do the cairn kickers think gives them the right to go about their ways...because they frequent a spot more regularly or have done for longer? This self appointed ownership or guardian of the land is a pretty pretentious way of thinking, bordering on wankerism...even toolianage. An individual has built that cairn for a reason, it isn't illegal to do so therefor don't muck with it.

If it's the sight of an unnatural anomaly in the bush then why not carry a guerny water blaster around on your back and start cleaning up a few of those caves the indigenous have scribbled over...Been there a long time? Ok then take an axe to the explorers tree or bulldoze some early settlers huts. Who gets to say what stays and what goes or what's been around long enough to warrant it's continued existence...definitely not a chosen few of hard core bushwalkers. And if the cairn placement is diminishing your enjoyment and not letting you showcase your stellar navigational skills by dumbing the walk down then go hire a chopper, fly it to interior Alaska, crash it into a high peak and I'm sure you'll have a decent walk out to civilisation and mostly cairn free....or you could just ignore the local ones on ground around here.

Anyway, I feel I said too much here and possibly implicated some of bushwalkings chosen few...I can see it now, the Blue mountains Bushwalking alluminati are going to stalk me and use me as human hunting game...Turkey shoot.

I WONT BE SILENCED!

[FatCanyoner]

I've heard far more stories of people getting lost by following cairns than I have stories of people getting lost because of none being there. I see lots of less experienced walkers who get drawn into a track, or marked route, and taken off course. It's impossible to know who placed them, where exactly they are going, how proficient the person building them was, and whether a better alternative route is available.

Oh, and can anyone point to a single rescue where emergency services had to rescue someone because of a missing cairn? Or is this just one of those convenient forms of argument without evidence to back it up...

Finally, I'd just like to interchange the word "kickers" with "builders" in puredingo's last post, as I think it makes the point perfectly...

But really the question is what do the cairn BUILDERS think gives them the right to go about their ways...because they frequent a spot more regularly or have done for longer? This self appointed ownership or guardian of the land is a pretty pretentious way of thinking, bordering on wankerism...even toolianage.

[maddog]

Not only useful as an aid to navigation, the cairn can add a sense of achievement. I encourage my children to add to the triumphant cairn, each a finger raised to salute the wowser. Puritanical strictures such as the 'Bushwalker's Code' are fine, if you enjoy that type of thing, but expect little support from others who do not share your missionary zeal.

Cheers

[perfectlydark]

Good luck reaching the 99% + of walkers who arent members here or any club then with that education.
Being realistic here

[dugsuth]

I don't know about that Tom, I think I'd much rather see a cairn than, say, a torn up ccf mat, maxi shield or old tyre.

But really the question is what do the cairn kickers think gives them the right to go about their ways...because they frequent a spot more regularly or have done for longer? This self appointed ownership or guardian of the land is a pretty pretentious way of thinking, bordering on wankerism...even toolianage. An individual has built that cairn for a reason, it isn't illegal to do so therefor don't muck with it.

If it's the sight of an unnatural anomaly in the bush then why not carry a guerny water blaster around on your back and start cleaning up a few of those caves the indigenous have scribbled over...Been there a long time? Ok then take an axe to the explorers tree or bulldoze some early settlers huts. Who gets to say what stays and what goes or what's been around long enough to warrant it's continued existence...definitely not a chosen few of hard core bushwalkers. And if the cairn placement is diminishing your enjoyment and not letting you showcase your stellar navigational skills by dumbing the walk down then go hire a chopper, fly it to interior Alaska, crash it into a high peak and I'm sure you'll have a decent walk out to civilisation and mostly cairn free....or you could just ignore the local ones on ground around here.

Anyway, I feel I said too much here and possibly implicated some of bushwalkings chosen few...I can see it now, the Blue mountains Bushwalking alluminati are going to stalk me and use me as human hunting game...Turkey shoot.

I WONT BE SILENCED!

+1000!!

[tom_brennan]

I'd echo FC's comment. What right do cairn builders have to go about their ways? If there were no cairn builders, we wouldn't be having this discussion!

An individual has built that cairn for a reason, it isn't illegal to do so therefor don't muck with it.

How do you know it isn't illegal? I'm sure if you ring up your local NPWS office, they'll tell you that you aren't allowed to disturb bushrock, and that you shouldn't build cairns.

From various pages on the NSW National Parks and Environment Dept websites - "Don't disturb historic places, Aboriginal sites, plants, animals or bushrock", "... do not move bushrock to construct fireplaces as it also forms wildlife habitat" and "Don't move rocks around for cairns, seats, jumps or any other purpose".

Good luck reaching the 99% + of walkers who arent members here or any club then with that education. Being realistic here

Fair enough. However, removing fire circles and cairns is a start. The less cairns and fire rings new walkers see, the less they will think they are normal or acceptable. And club walkers also walk outside clubs. If as a leader you make a habit of picking up rubbish, rehabilitating your campsites, dismantling cairns and removing fire rings, hopefully those who walk with you will pick up and pass the same habits on to those they walk with, both inside the club and out.

[perfectlydark]

Fair points re the leadership thing. I have a feeling this topic is batman and the joker..destined to do this for eternity haha

[Moondog55]

So how do you tell the difference between cairns of historical significance and those which are not.?. Will you also remove the summit cairn from Bogong, Kosciusko, Feathertop, Hotham and all the other major peaks. Will you stop at removing cairns or will you start a program of removal of all the official trig points on summits as well? What about memorials? Some of those are of historical significance as well as being a highly emotional issue for the families concerned? Will you bulldoze Eagle Rock at Falls Creek because it has the cross and flagpole and all the plaques to our past comrades and friends?
Where do you stop?
Fire rings in inappropriate places perhaps but cairns ?

[davidm]

Removing cairns is for pussys. I carry a rake around at all times and cover the track as much as possible. I don't like any sign that others have been there before me.

[tom_brennan]

So how do you tell the difference between cairns of historical significance and those which are not.?

I'd probably use common sense.

Cairns of historical significance aren't usually 3 rocks high, spaced every 10m along an obvious track.

Removing cairns is for pussys. I carry a rake around at all times and cover the track as much as possible. I don't like any sign that others have been there before me.

Good idea. Just make sure your rake isn't breaking branches off as you walk

[Moondog55]

[quote="tom_brennan"]
I'd probably use common sense.

Cairns of historical significance aren't usually 3 rocks high, spaced every 10m along an obvious track. quote"
Oh Not cairns then, you are talking a bout track-ducks, different bird entirely, funny thing is when I was in Scouts that was standard practice

[perfectlydark]

Agree thats something else. Surely if you spot one small pile in a few hours it couldnt cause that much frustration?

[maddog]

An individual has built that cairn for a reason, it isn't illegal to do so therefor don't muck with it.

How do you know it isn't illegal? I'm sure if you ring up your local NPWS office, they'll tell you that you aren't allowed to disturb bushrock, and that you shouldn't build cairns.

... removing fire circles and cairns is a start. The less cairns and fire rings new walkers see, the less they will think they are normal or acceptable. And club walkers also walk outside clubs. If as a leader you make a habit of picking up rubbish, rehabilitating your campsites, dismantling cairns and removing fire rings, hopefully those who walk with you will pick up and pass the same habits on to those they walk with, both inside the club and out.

If it is not legal for me to disturb bush rock to contribute to a cairn, then why is it legal for you to disturb bush rock in destroying the cairn? Are you the Sheriff?

[Nuts]

All this fascination with tagging things, building things, leaving stuff!! Making effort- less..and then!!! be prepared to argue in defence of the condition! mw
I love a good campfire, but i'd pull them apart if they were in a fuel stove area. Is this a bad thing?

[perfectlydark]

Nope, fuel stove area is just that

[Strider]

Spent last night at Lake Adelaide. What an amazingly beautiful spot! However, not only were there two fresh fire pits present, but some weirdo had pulled out a heap of lichen and piled it up behind the bushes next to the campsite. Who does this???

[puredingo]

Well if building a cairn IS an illegal act I'd be happy to see the proof of just one conviction on record...and even if there was one it still wouldn't convince me (since we're talking about common sense) that it was a crime.

Tom if the argument you put forth is to consider the destruction of wildlife habitat then best you stay out of the bush altogether. I'd say it would be a safe bet that in your years of tramping all over Gods green earth you would of dislodged hundreds of bush rocks, saplings, tree barks etc..More damage than the leisurely cairn builder could inflict in a life time of construction.

And what if there were no cairn builders? Well without the original builders...and blazers and taggers you would probably just be about to discover the end of Narrow neck by now...Well maybe not but my point is cairns DO have a purpose and have been around a lot longer than you have and they'll be here when you've hung up your volleys so maybe it's about time you gave up the self righteous act and come over to the good side, as destroying a cairn IS a totally selfish past time which only benifits the destroyer. At least the person who built the cairn in the first place had other peoples interest at heart...Maybe that's the big difference between the two?

Anyway, I'm going to kick myself out of this discussion because like the M*A*S*H series it could well go on forever...So on a final note to the cairn kickers if you do get pleasure in wrecking others doings then please just hit the beaches on the weekends and kick little the kids sand castles over, at least then the only people your endangering is yourself (when the old man wrings your neck like a chicken!)

[FatCanyoner]

This conversation is exactly why I've become less and less involved in this community. For me, bushwalking is about experiencing nature. I want to experience it in as natural way as possible. Ideally, future bushwalkers will see no trace of my time here. It's not mine, I don't own it, I don't want to mark or modify it. I just want to experience it, be rejuvenated by it, and feel connected to it. I'm just another grain of sand that will be long forgotten. The bush will still be there, providing the same joy to others, providing we don't f**k it up. We all have a choice. We can each take little actions that encroach on nature, that erode it, that replace wilderness with civilisation. Or we can do the opposite. We can put a little bit more effort into our camp etiquette, our navigation, our bushcraft, so as to leave it as wild as before. To move without a trace. The fact that so many people who claim to be bushwalkers don't feel the same way saddens me. It wouldn't bother me, except that their actions are slowly eroding that wilderness. Another hundred years of cairn builders and fire ring lovers and we'll have millions of hectares of parks, but no real wilderness. That may not bother a lot of you, but it really saddens me. I'm out of this conversation now too, as I don't have the energy to argue. I know the people I like to walk with, and the kind of people I don't. Unfortunately bushwalk.com has more people in that second category than the first. Thankfully, given most of them can't walk without cairns and GPS, I'll probably not run into too many of them in the bush...

[Strider]

Just because people don't agree with you Tim, does not mean they are not bushwalkers. They simply walk a different walk to yourself.

I see no argument here. Only a select few who choose to take the conversation personally.

[perfectlydark]

Its a healthy discussion provided personal attacks are kept out (luckily so the last page or so). Comparing cairns to turning bushland into paddocks is a just a tad hyperbolic? Anyway yes im out of this convo too my views have been made and we go in (fire) circles for eons if we choose

[jackhinde]

I have already made the point that from an archaeologists view point stone circles aid in defining post contact heaths (and thus i like them), so as we have now turned to piles of rocks, here are two structures that bushwalkers would do well to keep their do gooder hands off.

First is a 500mm deep carved well, with protective covering. Second is one of a number of markers near this well and the associated petroglyphs and charcoal sketches.

In regards to cairns, they are quite useful at times, particularly in places that are so unkempt that navigation is made difficult by unnatural scrub.

[tom_brennan]

Well if building a cairn IS an illegal act I'd be happy to see the proof of just one conviction on record...and even if there was one it still wouldn't convince me (since we're talking about common sense) that it was a crime.

My comment that building cairns was illegal was purely as a response to your comment that "it isn't illegal to do so therefor don't muck with it". I didn't make it illegal. If you don't like the fact that it's illegal, you don't need to argue with me, take it up with the NPWS.

And what if there were no cairn builders? Well without the original builders...and blazers and taggers you would probably just be about to discover the end of Narrow neck by now...Well maybe not but my point is cairns DO have a purpose and have been around a lot longer than you have

If I was bushwalking in the '20s, I'd be carrying my gun and shooting wildlife to eat. I'd be cutting down saplings for my tent poles, and piling up bracken for my sleeping mat. Just because these things were appropriate then, doesn't make them appropriate now. The population of Sydney back then was less than a million, now it's close to 5 million. Our collective impact on the country is greater than ever before. While a cairn here or a cairn there is not going to make much difference, if many people are out there building cairns it has a collective impact.

And in the age of the GPS, if you really need to mark something, just give someone a waypoint. No fuss, no impact.

It is a pity that the tone of the conversation has deteriorated somewhat from reasoned discussion.

[Moondog55]

Tom I thought the tone was still quite reasonable, perhaps no longer as friendly but still reasonable. I do wish I could afford a GPS tho.
I do draw a distinction between "track ducks" and cairns tho, in my own mind a cairn is a substantial structure of at least waist height and highly visible and obviously these take time and effort to build; therefore I would make the assumption they were there for a reasonable purpose when made.
jackhinde makes a reasonable point; in that I do not have the ability to distinguish between a boy scout track duck and an aboriginal marker.

[puredingo]

Yeah, I thought the tone was still cool? Tim seemed to get a bit cranky at the end of his post but hell, it's only the internut...I don't take anything personal...2 different opinions is all.

On your point regarding population, Tom. I wonder if the increase relates to people in the bush? I know there are millions more here now but the popularity of bushwalking seems to have waned also. Everybody these days seem to be cramming into the CBD's of Australia and even worse...MY BEACH!!!

[Strider]

While a cairn here or a cairn there is not going to make much difference, if many people are out there building cairns it has a collective impact.

Agreed.

[neilmny]

While a cairn here or a cairn there is not going to make much difference, if many people are out there building cairns it has a collective impact.

Agreed.

Got to agree here. A couple of years ago we were at the Grampians and on the track to what was "the Jaws of Death" people had built hundreds of cairns
...it was rediculous, ugly, served no purpose and disrespectful as far as I am concerned. Went there the following year and they had all been knocked down.

[Strider]

I think my joke went over your head..

[neilmny]

I think my joke went over your head..

Hmmm yep it's still hovering over there somewhere Strider maybe a bit thick this morning.

[Strider]

All good. Your Grampians example does sound a bit extreme though!

[MartyGwynne]

Good discussion on cairns people, I have done on occasion made a few little cairns to mark my way back home if I manage to make my way back in the dark which was unplanned. Usually just the little 1,2or3 stone jobs which are easily kicked away by which ever wombat or dear wanders past next.
I have also encouraged my kids to build little cairns to mark our magnificent explorative progress into the great unknown (what great fun to encourage kids to enjoy a walk).
Yes I have seen the excessive cairns and sometimes scattered the rocks if they are within eyesight of the next to or three etc.
I have no problem of seeing them and sort of feel comforted that someone else has been along the same track/path and taken the time to enjoy it and mark their experience with a couple of nearby rocks.
Be it legal or not I do feel that some sort of common sense comes to play here and respect others ideals of cairns or even fire rings. Next time I go to either remove or build, I will reflect upon this discussion and hopefully choose the right thing to do under the circumstances.
Now I must get off to Melbourne following my cairns left in my GPS ……. I hope no one has kicked them off the screen.