Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you do?

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Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you do?

Postby FatCanyoner » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 9:30 am

G'day folks,

There's been a little bit of controversy in the canyoning community over the last few days over an incident in Claustral Canyon relating to a couple abandoned packs. It has sparked a whole lot of discussion, both about this incident, and more broadly what the best course of action should be. I figured it was worth extending this discussion to the broader bushwalking community given it naturally impacts on us all. In particular, when there are rescues packs are often left behind. While the owner should retrieve them, they often don't, leaving them in wilderness areas, often far from access points. While the Bushwalkers Code touches on the issue (it says: "If you find litter left by irresponsible people along the track or around a campsite, please remove it. Show you care for the environment, even if others don’t."), there are also a lot of grey areas. Below are the key elements of the discussion, and my thoughts and questions for others.

The incident: (If you want more context you can see the full trip report here: http://fatcanyoners.org/2014/02/08/claustral-at-night/)

After a while we met a large group of nine Sydney Bush Walkers who had done Explorers Brook the day before, camped there and were now about to exit via Rainbow Ravine. We continued a bit further down from there and then Kristian spotted something he first thought could be some exceptionally large fungus. Upon getting closer we realised it was by far of natural origin, but littered bushwalking gear. There were two day packs and all around them some items of clothing and most prominently quite some first aid gear including a space blanket. The fungus was one of those cheap rain ponchos. It was made “waterproof” using lots of freezer bags and didn’t strike us as typical canyoning gear.

We started wondering what might have happened and tried to remember whether we heard of any recent rescue in this area. It really seemed to be left behind when a party that was in trouble finally got rescued. We then decided to pack everything into the backpacks and lug it out with us to dispose of it properly once we were back in civilisation.

When we finally reached the top of Camels Hump we bumped into the Sydney Bush Walkers group again and when we told them about what we’ve found in the canyon, they told us they saw the packs as well. But not only that. They also told us that the two packs were still properly packed which everything inside the packs when they arrived. It was them who unpacked everything and spread it out to see if there was anything useful inside. We were speechless and afterwards thought we might have misunderstood them.

We continued to Camels Saddle and down into Claustral and then detoured to retrieve the head torch we lost the previous night. But unfortunately, the water was still cloudy and we couldn’t properly see the ground. After several more attempts to dive and find the torch by touch we had to give up and returned back to the car.

There we saw the Sydney Bush Walkers once again and brought up the issue with the rubbish again. It seemed they didn’t see anything wrong in not only neglecting to carry out the rubbish from a wilderness area, but instead making it worse by spreading out everything to get washed away and eaten by animals separately. The only response that we got was simply that that this was our view and that we were entitled to it. Then they drove off.

Following this, we had a longish discussion about the rubbish issue in the car back to Sydney and I’d like to share some of the thoughts we had here.

We believe it is everyone’s responsibility in the bush to carry out the rubbish they find wherever possible. This is especially true for wilderness areas that are far enough away from road and popular tourist access so about everything you find in there was carried in by someone in the first place and the lost/dumped/forgotten. Sure, one could say “I don’t litter therefore I don’t carry out other people’s stuff”. But let’s be honest: everyone has lost something in the bush before. Something might have been forgotten at camp. Or at the windy lunch spot it was blown down the cliff. There is the notorious muesli bar wrapper that disappeared from your pockets while walking. Or the animal that nicked something overnight. How many of us have lost (or found) gloves in canyons before. Or in our case a head torch got lost. I doubt any regular bushwalker can truly claim his party never littered in the bush. To make up for it, the least we can do is carry out the rubbish we find.

Apart from this obligation, it is also in all of our interest that the bush is clean. Nobody likes stumbling across rubbish. But if we do and carry it out, the next person will have a better experience. Just assume that were you walked before has been rubbish as well but another party removed it for you when they passed through. This way everyone benefits.

Sure, there are situations where it isn’t possible to take with you what you found. If you are, say, on day one of a hard six day hike with a small group and stumble over a heavy load trash, everyone understands that you can’t take it. But then leave it in a state where it does the least harm. Maybe you can even put it somewhere safe and pick it up on the last day. But here they were a group of nine people on their final leg of the trip. So it seems hard to justify that it wasn’t possible for them to split up the small packs between them and carry them out.

But certainly it does not seem appropriate to spread out everything that was inside the pack. By doing this, animals drag away and eat the individual pieces. Wind and water washes away every bit individually. And you’re also making it a lot harder for the next party to carry it out because that group has to collect everything first instead of just packing the whole packs. If you spread it out like this, you might as well have dumped it there in the first place.

And last but not least, this is not just our view, but it is also established in the Bushwalkers Code, which is not just written by us but in fact it was produced by Bushwalking NSW (formerly Confederation of Bushwalking Clubs NSW).


The response from the SBW trip leader: (A full discussion thread can be found here: https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/OzC ... pics/16291)

I was the leader of the other group in Helen’s post, I’d like to offer some commentary to Helen and Kosta’s comments.

I've been climbing, bushwalking and canyoning in the Blue Mountains for 11 years , I’ve visited 300+ different canyons and am passionate about protecting our bush and wilderness. I always carry out rubbish and practice minimal impact bushwalking, however, Sunday’s circumstances were different. This incident is very embarrassing and has upset me dearly.

The Packs in Carmarthen Brook

* I was the first person to the packs, noticing the same first aid kit that Helen noted.
* The packs were partly hidden under logs/branches/dirt suggesting they had been there a while.
* The packs were already open with several items surrounding.
* Yes, we inspected the packs for valuables to hand to police, none were present.
* Yes, we failed to repack the items, meaning we left the scene worse than we found it. That was a mistake that I deeply regret.
* As leader, I decided the group wasn't strong enough to carry the rubbish out.

My SBW Group

The group had a wide range of experience and ability, from 300+ canyons to just 2. We had an 8.5 hour day on Saturday, had already been going 4 hours on Sunday with potential for 7 more. All that with water-logged full w/e packs, some found that challenging, but just a normal w/e for me:

* However, I lost the use of my left hand on Saturday in a fall. Through that, I didn't have my usual balance and didn't feel strong enough to carry the rubbish out.
* The 2nd strongest party member had a knee injury.
* That meant members 3, 4 & 5 had to carry the group gear and ropes.
* Members 8 & 9 were exhausted and couldn’t keep-up.
* That left only 6 & 7 with capacity to carry the rubbish out, I didn't feel they were capable of that.

We were behind schedule at this point. Once the party re-grouped, we immediately left the packs to keep the group moving, I was entirely focused on getting the group out of the canyon, forgetting to repack the gear into the packs to tidy the scene. That was my mistake and I’m responsible for that which I regret.

Helen & Kosta’s group

I don’t know the group so can’t gauge how they’d rank compared to ours, but Helen’s group was certainly younger than ours, and probably stronger and fitter too. Helen’s group had exerted significantly less effort at that point, and were not carrying packs.

The Leaders’ Decision

Given the circumstances, Helen and Kosta’s decision was a very different proposition to mine:

* Helen & Kosta’s group were fresher, probably stronger, and weren't carrying packs. They could share the load of 2 packs between 4 for the return journey to Rainbow Ravine before making a further decision on the rubbish.
* My group was behind-schedule, tired and carrying water-logged full w/e packs. Just 1 or 2kg extra can be significant.

I’m not a natural leader and the burden weighs heavy on me. Helen and Kosta noted that they thought we had sufficient capacity to carry the rubbish out. Maybe I underestimated my team? Maybe we could’ve carried the rubbish out without causing a problem to the team? I made the decision that the team wasn't strong enough to carry the rubbish out. My group did get out safely without requiring rescue which is paramount.

The completion of our trip

6 of the group were too tired to complete the trip as planned, so exited early following a 2 hour rest. I lead 2 members through Gaping Gill to complete the trip.

Yes, I felt strong enough to complete Gaping Gill without the w/e pack, but didn't feel strong enough (or have the balance) to carry extra weight up Rainbow Ravine - I found it very challenging with only 1 working hand, not sure how I’d fair with extra weight in my pack.

Discussions between the 2 groups

I wasn't present at either discussion so have no knowledge of what was discussed or expressed.

Summary

* Yes, we must all look after the environment and carry out rubbish that we find.
* Yes, my group should’ve repacked the gear into the packs to tidy the scene. That was my mistake and I apologise.
* However, I don’t believe our group had sufficient capacity to carry the rubbish out.
* Thank you Helen, Kosta and team for removing the rubbish.
* I think it’s worth re-emphasising that we didn't put the rubbish in the canyon, we just failed to remove it because we weren't capable of doing so.

Sydney Bushwalkers

SBW has a long and proud history and is the oldest outdoor club in NSW. This incident has caused great embarrassment to the committee and club members. I have expressed my sincere apologies to the committee for this negative publicity and have offered them to annul my membership if they deem appropriate.

Had I not injured my hand on Saturday, this story wouldn't exist…

Richard.


I had been through the same canyon as Richard's group about five weeks ago (Burumin Canyon / Explorers Brook), and reversed up Thunder Gorge as they did. I didn't see the packs, although there was signs of fresh damage caused by a helicopter extraction at the normal Claustral exit (50m downstream of Rainbow Ravine). I'm not sure if I missed them, or they only appeared at some point in the last five weeks.

As it was, my group removed a whole lot of crap from lower Thunder Gorge. Everything from seatbelt webbing, old handlines, unrated rope, cut slings, and even the waist belt from a pack. Needless to say my overnight pack was bulging by the end! Unfortunately, such popular canyons upstream mean a lot of rubbish washing downstream. Few people seem to visit the lower gorge, so not much gets packed out. In contrast, we found no rubbish in Burumin, and only one old sling in the section of King Georges Brook we reversed.

From my point of view, the issue of people abandoning things in the bush when they simply don't want to carry them does seem to be getting worse. I'm now up to three pack rafts that have been lugged out of the Colo on trips over the last year or two. Those things are heavy, especially when half full of sand and water. It seems some people punch a hole in them, then decide they'll simply stash it in the bush (at best) or abandon it on a beach to be washed further away. I've also found the box for a brand new foot pump -- why you'd carry that to the river then leave it I don't know!

Personally, if you have any capacity (Richard admitted two fit members of the party still) then I think you should at least carry some of the waste out, lessening what is left behind for others. Leaving stuff spread around just means it will be easier for animals or rain to spread the garbage further.

Rubbish also tends to multiply. In the same way I have heard people justify doing graffiti in a cave because there was already some there, I fear some people are more likely to dump rubbish or gear they don't want to carry if they see stuff lying around and assume it is acceptable.

There is one interesting counter-point to this that I simply hadn't thought of. I'll include Caro's thoughts on it directly:

One other reason to leave stuff alone (and this is with my http://www.bwrs.org.au hat on), is if there is any chance it could be evidence from a missing person or crime. In which case, best to:

- don't touch anything or disturb the area
- only let one person approach and handle (gloves or stick) if necessary to determine what it is
- that person retreats from the same way they approached and make note of that track
- Take a GPS waypoint. Be aware that if you take photos and/or video you may lose your card to the police if it is a crime or serious.
- if chance of animal disturbance try to protect the scene (eg tarps)
- May be necessary to leave person to protect scene (from animals or other punters) until Police arrive
- call local police immediately when in phone range and tell them everything... They will tell you what to do next.

It has happened that Bushwalkers come across all sorts of things in the bush, so handy to know what to do if it happens to you.


So what does everyone think? What do you do in similar situations? At what point is the risk to your group (from added weight / bulk in packs) greater than the need to remove rubbish from wilderness areas? And how can you tell when something should be left behind for the authorities?
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby buggeriamold » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 10:19 am

One concern I would have would be that the packs had been left there on purpose. I have left my pack in the bush whilst off doing a side trip, as I think you had when the packs in question were found.

I leave tents & packs I come across alone as I would hope people would do to mine, I would hate to come back & find my gear gone or riffled through & left around…

All in all it’s a hard one!

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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby north-north-west » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 10:49 am

The difficulty is in deciding when something has been abandoned and when it's there for good reason. With rubbish or isolated items you know where you are, but otherwise . . .
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby kanangra » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 11:20 am

I don't know him at all and am not a member of SBW but Richard's reply is exemplary and a real credit to him. It more than satisfies me.

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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby GPSGuided » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 11:44 am

Why did they spread the content of the packs around? That's my question. If neatly packed and left at a discrete location, then it's not unreasonable to be left alone, until a stronger group retrieves it. If it was left by a group that got rescued, then I'd think it's not unreasonable to return the pack/s to them.
Just move it!
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby jonnosan » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 11:53 am

I think Richard acknowledged (and everyone else would agree) that he should have repacked the bags.
As to whether or not his group should have carried the bags out - I think trip leaders need to have the discretion to make these calls,with group safety being paramount.
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby Onestepmore » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 1:12 pm

Was there any ID in the packs?
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby north-north-west » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 1:16 pm

Onestepmore wrote:Was there any ID in the packs?

Well, they said they inspected the contents for valuables, I'm thinking that if there had been ID they would have mentioned it and probably notified authorities/owners.
Just an assumption but I like to think a reasonable one.
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby stry » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 1:39 pm

north-north-west wrote:The difficulty is in deciding when something has been abandoned and when it's there for good reason. With rubbish or isolated items you know where you are, but otherwise . . .
buggeriamold wrote:One concern I would have would be that the packs had been left there on purpose. I have left my pack in the bush whilst off doing a side trip, as I think you had when the packs in question were found.

I leave tents & packs I come across alone as I would hope people would do to mine, I would hate to come back & find my gear gone or riffled through & left around…

All in all it’s a hard one!

Mark


This pretty well sums it up. Leave it alone. If concerned, follow the suggestions made about marking the spot and reporting it to police or SAR as appropriate.

Removing what may well be a deliberately left/stashed pack could certainly cause some problems for the owner.

I also add the qualifier that I am not a caver and am not familiar with the traffic in the area discussed.
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby GPSGuided » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 1:50 pm

jonnosan wrote:I think Richard acknowledged (and everyone else would agree) that he should have repacked the bags.

Acknowledged. But it still baffles me how a group of adults, some with extensive experiences would pull and spread the contents of the two packs. It should have been a no-brainer second nature response to tidy things up before leaving. It's not something that happens as an after thought and in regret. As such, without a clear explanation of the thought processes behind this instinct, all else can be nicely iced and dressed up on a keyboard days later. It's that innate character that's in question here.
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby Lizzy » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 2:20 pm

If I saw a full pack I would assume someone was coming back for it.... & also keep an ear out for missing persons in the news. Wouldn't be too happy if someone took my pack I had stashed while doing a side trip!
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby north-north-west » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 2:22 pm

GPSGuided wrote:
jonnosan wrote:I think Richard acknowledged (and everyone else would agree) that he should have repacked the bags.

Acknowledged. But it still baffles me how a group of adults, some with extensive experiences would pull and spread the contents of the two packs. It should have been a no-brainer second nature response to tidy things up before leaving. It's not something that happens as an after thought and in regret. As such, without a clear explanation of the thought processes behind this instinct, all else can be nicely iced and dressed up on a keyboard days later. It's that innate character that's in question here.

It's easy to judge when it's someone else and you weren't even there, but I do tend to agree with you. It should be second nature to clean up after yourself at the least.
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby Giddy_up » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 2:57 pm

I'm amazed that people would abandon backpacks of any type, there all expensive. Even a small medical kit is worth $50 or so……..
With regard to the OP, I probably wouldn't touch it if it was all in tact, if it was messed up as described I would clean up the rubbish and place the usable items back near the pack. I would also let the police know I think.
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby GPSGuided » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 3:17 pm

north-north-west wrote:It's easy to judge when it's someone else and you weren't even there, but I do tend to agree with you. It should be second nature to clean up after yourself at the least.

No contest that there could be circumstances and it's too easy to pass judgement. But when examining an issue in depth, social correctness should not get in the way of exploring a deep rooted factor. In this case, I don't think a simple "regret" is sufficient to brush it away. If it was repacked and left where it was found, I don't think it would have generated the same level of reaction from FatCanyoner's group as well as for most.
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby icefest » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 3:46 pm

What I have learnt from this thread is to clearly label any food/equipment drops with the rough date that I should be back.
Well, on top of hiding them as best as possible.
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby David M » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 3:55 pm

I would note the location by GPS and tell the police. The packs may have been deliberately left there or left there after a rescue and the owners may intend to return to get them. I would repack the contents as well. These days a pack could easily contain two or three thousand dollars worth of equipment, including the pack itself.
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby neilmny » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 4:10 pm

Lizzy wrote:If I saw a full pack I would assume someone was coming back for it.... & also keep an ear out for missing persons in the news. Wouldn't be too happy if someone took my pack I had stashed while doing a side trip!


Same here. Assuming it is abondoned and taking the gear could put someone in danger.
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby davidf » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 5:02 pm

I left a bunch of climbing and camping gear a few years ago in the sundeck cave at mt piddington. I had badly sprained my ankle and had enough gear for a week. I had to crawl out. This thousands of dollers of stuff. I had a mate pick it up that night. He lived in blackheath so my gear was picked up promptley. We didn't have pen and paper to explain left gear. I now take pen and paper. For dumped gear, a I was here and am still lost note etc.

As for rubbish, that *&^%$#@! me. The colo was mentioned above. Abandonded rafts aren't packrafts (they"re $1000 units) but kmart cheapies that since are cheap and go kaput like lilos get left behind carry in carry out I say.

The bottom of bob turners track is often littered with empty bottles of premium beer. Carry in and carry out. If your on a booze mission take tins or casks. Espescially in large groups. The rubbish then isn't so hard to carry out.
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby Lophophaps » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 5:25 pm

north-north-west wrote:The difficulty is in deciding when something has been abandoned and when it's there for good reason. With rubbish or isolated items you know where you are, but otherwise . . .


That and the ID quote sum it up.

Whilst SBW didn't do everything right, obtaining more details before judging is useful. It should be relatively easy to see if gear is post-rescue or parked for a day trip. I've seen heaps of packs at T intersections where the party does a side trip, like at Pelion Gap for Ossa.

I generally take out or inter rubbish. Better that than on the surface. One trip I lost a lovely thermometer and found a lovely torch. One of the best was a full bottle of port in a remote hut. No note, just left behind. The weather was bad so we thought, any port in a storm, and in the interests of saving weight emptied the bottle, allowing us to carry the bottle out. Hic.
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby Overlandman » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 7:29 pm

I would take the details & a photo & report it to Parks

This subject reminded me of this tragic event from July / August 2007

THE body of a missing Danish tourist was recovered from Cradle Mountain yesterday almost six weeks after he was reported missing.Kasper Kataoka Sorensen, 21, is believed to have fallen from the top of Cradle Mountain in poor weather. Mr Sorensen’s body was yesterday flown to Hobart and taken to the Royal Hobart Hospital mortuary.

Insp Brian Edmonds, who had been leading the search, said Mr Sorensen’s family in Denmark had been notified through the Danish consulate. Mr Sorensen was last seen on the summit of Cradle Mountain on July 5, his birthday. Bushwalkers first reported Mr Sorensen’s abandoned backpack — containing camping gear, a tent and his passport — at the mountain’s summit on July 10, but it was not retrieved by Parks and Wildlife staff until five days later when a police search for the missing man began.

The search was aborted several times because of dangerous weather conditions. Mr Sorensen’s body was found by a helicopter observer crew 12 days ago at the bottom of a cliff metres from where he was last seen, but heavy snowfalls and high winds stopped police recovering it. Insp Edmonds said Mr Sorensen’s body was recovered from Cradle Mountain at 12.30pm yesterday. “The operation required winching a party onto an icy ledge 100 metres below the summit,” he said. “A large amount of snow and ice was moved in order to secure the body in a stretcher before winching it back into he Westpac Rescue Helicopter.”

Insp Edmonds said although there was a substantial amount of snow and ice on the mountain, the successful recovery had been conducted in fine weather with minimal cloud and light winds. “Weather in the Cradle Mountain area over the past weeks has hampered both the search and then the recovery operation,” Insp Edmonds said. “After considering the options and assessing the risks it was decided to wait until the weather allowed for the safer helicopter rescue.”
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby Snowzone » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 7:57 pm

A few years ago I came across a lot of gear, sleeping bag, cooking equipment etc. that had been left in a bush hut. At the time I just thought someone had based themselves at the hut and was out walking. On return to the hut a week or so later, it was obvious that the belongings had been abandoned as nothing had changed from my previous visit. My first thought was OMG someone has gone and got themselves lost or injured and is laying out there somewhere. After having a look around the area a bit and finding noone, I notified Parks staff who took a couple of days to track down events but someone had actually abandoned their gear because they'd had a blue with whoever they were camping with and had somehow got a ride out of the area. It certainly left me unsettled not knowing what had taken place.
So I would note the co-ords and contact authorities and I would be careful to leave things as I found them if I had searched for ID.
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby Lindsay » Thu 13 Feb, 2014 11:56 pm

Any idea who left the packs in the first place? And is it common practise for groups who canyon regularly to leave a certain amount of equipment cached nearby to save carrying it in and out each time? If so, an animal/waterproof container would seem to be the best way to do so rather than in a pack. A waterproof container would indicate to anyone who came across it that it was left for a purpose, rather than lost/abandoned or left for a day walk. It is utterly irresponsible of the group to unpack the packs and leave the contents exposed as they did.
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby Lophophaps » Fri 14 Feb, 2014 5:04 am

One question that can be asked is what would a reasonable and prudent person do. If it's believed that the gear has been abandoned, then certainly report the matter, take pictures, maybe even pack the gear out. How do you know the gear was not left intentionally? The simplest way is label, which should be put on canyoner's gear left as cited above. Packs left at a junction where a track to a peak goes off are almost certainly left intentionally. Beyond that the picture gets murky.
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby David M » Fri 14 Feb, 2014 7:15 am

Some good points here. We should certainly put name, email and phone number and perhaps address on pack and perhaps even some other items.

What are your thoughts and does anyone do this?
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby stepbystep » Fri 14 Feb, 2014 8:02 am

I have my name and home phone in the top section of my pack. I also have my phone number on the splash screen of my GPS.

I hope SBW have stopped Richard from leading any future walks. Some poor decisions on his part, and by his own admission he wasn't comfortable in that role. At least he was honest enough to admit that post walk.

I've found a daypack once in a carpark at the Edgar Dam, mid winter. There was no-one about and I waited for nearly an hour. I found contact details in there and made the decision to take the pack.
As soon as I got mobile reception I rang the number and the owners were in New Norfolk. It turned out they didn't realise it was missing but the woman had some important medication in there.

I was rewarded with a nice bottle of Pooley's Pinot Noir. But I did agonise over whether to take it. I would never take a pack out of the bush and I would never spread the contents all over the place...what were they thinking???
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby FatCanyoner » Fri 14 Feb, 2014 8:14 am

Wow, some really interesting thoughts / feedback here.

I probably should have provided a little more background for the non-locals / non-canyoners.

Firstly, where the packs were located was not an area where side trips are generally done. Given most canyons are technical (requiring rope / harness etc), it is very rare to leave packs around while doing them. In fact, given most canyons have limited exit options, it should usually be very clear where a side trip is occurring.

Secondly, I'm not sure what it's like in other states, but in NSW emergency services almost always make people leave packs behind when being rescued by helicopter. That means these kind of things happen pretty regularly in the Blue Mountains. I hear first-hand stories a couple times a year of packs / tents / other gear being found by groups. While experienced groups will normally return for it, often these rescues are of inexperienced people who were in over their head. In these cases, they seem almost never to go back for the gear, simply leaving it in the bush. Police here do not go back to recover gear either. NPWS staff may, but it would take a long time as they are hugely understaffed. In this case it would have taken a full day to get to the packs and get out. Given the technical nature of the area, it would have required at least two rangers. With limited staff, it's simply not a priority.

Thirdly, especially among canyoners it is not standard practice to cache gear. People will often base camp out of a camp cave in more remote areas, but that is generally pretty obvious. Leaving other gear in place is not generally done. Abseiling gear is expensive, and once out of your sight it's hard to know if some damage is done to it. Relying on safety gear that had been left out in the bush would be extremely dangerous, and I don't know any canyoners who would do that.

Fourthly, I think working out if a pack is abandoned is simpler than most people are making out. Has it got a large amount of leaves / debris that has fallen on it? Is there food inside, and if so is it fresh or rotten? Are there possible side trips nearby? Has it been stashed in a secure spot, or simply left lying about? I think it's usually possible to make an informed call, with more than 99% accuracy, on any abandoned gear. That said, a few years ago I came across what looked like an abandoned camp, but because it had some clothes / socks still hanging on a makeshift clothesline I decided it was still likely in use (possibly by a hermit) so I left it be. I'm still unsure whether it was currently in use. I think when in doubt, probably best to leave behind and just inform NPWS.

davidf wrote:As for rubbish, that *&^%$#@! me. The colo was mentioned above. Abandonded rafts aren't packrafts (they"re $1000 units) but kmart cheapies that since are cheap and go kaput like lilos get left behind carry in carry out I say.


Spot on mate. They've been a range of brands, but all the cheap models. I'm yet to discover an Alpaca etc!

Personally, I think there's a couple things I'm going to take away from this:
1) Write name / contact number inside packs so if something has to be left behind in an emergency it can be recovered
2) If in doubt, take photos and report the find to NPWS / Police
3) If caching gear, do it in a secure spot that makes clear it's in use, and not simply been abandoned. If leaving for longer periods -- days or weeks (not sure why I would) -- make sure there is a note explaining that
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby icefest » Fri 14 Feb, 2014 8:23 am

stepbystep wrote:I hope SBW have stopped Richard from leading any future walks.


I disagree, people can learn, people can change.

I don't know him or the situation as well as the current club leaders so all of this is pure conjecture.
In their shoes, I'd suggest he stopped leading trips for a month and went on a walk or two with more experienced leaders who can teach him what to do. That in combination with a reread of the bushwalking code of conduct or similar.

The only way not to make mistakes is not to try at all. We need people who are prepared to learn and try.
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby stepbystep » Fri 14 Feb, 2014 8:54 am

icefest wrote:
stepbystep wrote:I hope SBW have stopped Richard from leading any future walks.


I disagree, people can learn, people can change.

I don't know him or the situation as well as the current club leaders so all of this is pure conjecture.
In their shoes, I'd suggest he stopped leading trips for a month and went on a walk or two with more experienced leaders who can teach him what to do. That in combination with a reread of the bushwalking code of conduct or similar.

The only way not to make mistakes is not to try at all. We need people who are prepared to learn and try.


To quote Richard;

I’m not a natural leader and the burden weighs heavy on me.


Unless that changes I'd disagree with you.
The idea of wilderness needs no defense, it only needs defenders ~ Edward Abbey
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby icefest » Fri 14 Feb, 2014 9:15 am

That's ok, we don't all have to agree. :)

I think leadership can be learned and one must not be a born leader to lead well. It might be harder and require dedication but it hardly impossible.
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Re: Removing abandoned packs from the bush -- what would you

Postby tom_brennan » Fri 14 Feb, 2014 9:28 am

icefest wrote:I think leadership can be learned and one must not be a born leader to lead well. It might be harder and require dedication but it hardly impossible.


Agree. I think few people are natural leaders. We worry about decisions we make, we hesitate to make decisions, sometimes we make wrong decisions. When we make wrong decisions, we learn from that. But unless you're satisfied with being a follower, then you lead. And I suspect that most of us in this forum are leaders, natural or otherwise.
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