creating new walking tracks in a NP

[hunsta]

Sorry if this has been covered before, but how difficult is it to get a new walking track opened in a NP I have a small NP where I live which has 2 small tracks on it. From one of them I can see potential for 1 or 2 more.
If they were mapped properly, and didn't overly disturb the ecosystem of the area and relatively safe, would there be much departmental hassle?
Has anyone else tried( and we are talking Qld here)?
Or am I just being nieve?

[Strider]

Once they are official, they have to be maintained. And that costs money..

[tastrax]

+1

First thing is to talk to the managers and/or line up some builders/maintainers in the form of a recognised, long established club of willing workers. Without the support of the managers you are asking for trouble. Remember that they have to maintain (or not) the existing network with limited resources, so in a general sense there will need to be a compelling reason to add to the track network. You might also like to consider and suggest a corresponding length of track to be closed (and rehabilitated) at the same time. Of course, if you have a history of assisting the managers with the existing network then you may be half way to a solution already.

[tastrax]

There have been a couple of previous threads re track maintenance

viewtopic.php?f=5&t=9762

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2760

[hunsta]

When you say managers, I assume your talking about NPW officers who manage that particular park. That would be the start. There isnt much of a gathered walking community in my area, although Im sure theres plenty out there. There is an education/school camp centre at the start of the NP and Ive thought about approaching them as they take most of the kids they get on the 2 tracks that it has. One being a 3.2km return straight(kinda) up and down Mt Boulder. And the other is a 500mtr stroll around the creek that runs through the picnic area
I guess what Im after is starting a complete new track to complement the other small ones.
Guess Ill start with NP&W and go from there.
Cheers
Craig

[tastrax]

Yep, contact the PWS Rangers if its their land. Using the education/school connection would be good as they might be seen as "regular users" who might be willing to accept some responsibility for maintenance. The design and building of a new track would also fit into an educational program for the students (plenty of things involved - track slope, grade, gps use, environmental issues, planning processes, track standards (AS2156), management plans etc). Hit up the teachers/instructors before going to PWS.

If you need some leads on track maintenance texts just let me know.

[clarence]

Hi Hunsta,

Dealing with any of the National Park bureaucracy is an absolute waste of time in 99% of cases.

I used to work for NPWS in NSW as a ranger and senior field officer, so I know the issues first hand.

The local mountainbike fraternity became so frustrated by the NPWS attitude to their very reasonable concerns about places to ride in the area I had worked. I ended up working with them (once I had left the NPWS) and we established about 4km of mountainbike tracks, all in a very sustainable and measured way. These trails are now far more popular and less degraded than the corresponding "offical" NPWS tracks in the same area. All the trails we built were unauthorised and with no funds. IN the same time the local NPWS budget of hundreds of thousands of dollars could barely upgrade a siimilar length of track in the same area.

A new walking trail established in a nearby part of the reserve some years later had taken 25 years to plan and cost millions of dollars. Prior to its construction, myself and a few bushwalking colleagues were almost going to cut in the track ourselves as the bureaucratic delays had become so ridiculous. By the way, these bushwalking friends include some long time and well respected conservationists who had done much over the years to see our natural areas preserved.

NPWS staff like to rule with an iron fist form their ivory management towers, and have little idea that many of the established tracks in parks were developed by local walkers over many decades, with no need for all the nonsense and cost that NPWS insist on today. The suggestion of closing a similar length of track is ludicrous, even under the charter of many parks and wildlife services. The reason for this is that many long established tracks represent a significant (and sometimes the only recognised) part of the European cultural heritage of use of such areas. To remove or destroy significant items of cultural heritage is indeed and offence under some states' national parks legislation.

The reason these organisations have so few resources to maintain tracks is because they are all sitting behind desks writing more reports rather than getting out and creating something positive for the community. The reason maintenance is such a big issue is that everyone is too scared to even snap off a twig hanging over track, because these authorities have made such a big deal of it

My advice is plan, mark out and build a basic "route". Tape the route and establish it well before the ends which connect to any nearby track or road are opened up. Whatever you do, don't mention it to the national parks services. The publication "walking Track Construction Guideline" by Stephen Gorrell is available online through the NSW National Parks shop, and gives and excellent and thorough coverage of the subject and cost less than $30.

When you don't have to deal with the bureaucracy, building a walking track isn't especially difficult in many landscapes. If the track is well thought out and postioned, maintenance is not an issue, provided walkers are not discouraged from doing so by the relevant authorities.

Clarence

[hunsta]

Hi Hunsta,

Dealing with any of the National Park bureaucracy is an absolute waste of time in 99% of cases.

I used to work for NPWS in NSW as a ranger and senior field officer, so I know the issues first hand.

The local mountainbike fraternity became so frustrated by the NPWS attitude to their very reasonable concerns about places to ride in the area I had worked. I ended up working with them (once I had left the NPWS) and we established about 4km of mountainbike tracks, all in a very sustainable and measured way. These trails are now far more popular and less degraded than the corresponding "offical" NPWS tracks in the same area. All the trails we built were unauthorised and with no funds. IN the same time the local NPWS budget of hundreds of thousands of dollars could barely upgrade a siimilar length of track in the same area.

A new walking trail established in a nearby part of the reserve some years later had taken 25 years to plan and cost millions of dollars. Prior to its construction, myself and a few bushwalking colleagues were almost going to cut in the track ourselves as the bureaucratic delays had become so ridiculous. By the way, these bushwalking friends include some long time and well respected conservationists who had done much over the years to see our natural areas preserved.

NPWS staff like to rule with an iron fist form their ivory management towers, and have little idea that many of the established tracks in parks were developed by local walkers over many decades, with no need for all the nonsense and cost that NPWS insist on today. The suggestion of closing a similar length of track is ludicrous, even under the charter of many parks and wildlife services. The reason for this is that many long established tracks represent a significant (and sometimes the only recognised) part of the European cultural heritage of use of such areas. To remove or destroy significant items of cultural heritage is indeed and offence under some states' national parks legislation.

The reason these organisations have so few resources to maintain tracks is because they are all sitting behind desks writing more reports rather than getting out and creating something positive for the community. The reason maintenance is such a big issue is that everyone is too scared to even snap off a twig hanging over track, because these authorities have made such a big deal of it

My advice is plan, mark out and build a basic "route". Tape the route and establish it well before the ends which connect to any nearby track or road are opened up. Whatever you do, don't mention it to the national parks services. The publication "walking Track Construction Guideline" by Stephen Gorrell is available online through the NSW National Parks shop, and gives and excellent and thorough coverage of the subject and cost less than $30.

When you don't have to deal with the bureaucracy, building a walking track isn't especially difficult in many landscapes. If the track is well thought out and postioned, maintenance is not an issue, provided walkers are not discouraged from doing so by the relevant authorities.

Clarence

Thanks to clarence and tastrax. Some great tips and help there. I have one question the more experience in these matters may help with. Is there any reason one cant just create a trail, keep using it so as to make it well trodden and then just use it as a word of mouth track. I wouldnt just head bush with a machete and GPS and go for broke, but pick a meandering path in the general direction I want to go. Ive offen though of doing this as a bit of "off track exploring"
As Ive said this is a very small NP (actually its divided into two NP`s approx 5km apart) with a large 4X4 track on one side and beef grazing on the other, anyone with an once of sense (yeah yeah I know. Theres stupid people out there) could navigate this area with very little problems. Ive lived next door to this NP for 25 years now and know the area well. Then after its well used and Im sure they would notice it sooner or later, most of the ground work(excuse the pun) would be done. Something to contemplate for this winter seasons walking.
Craig

[nq111]

That's great advice Clarence.

I am aware of people creating new tracks in national parks with clandestine support from some in National Parks. There are risks someone will do something stupid or degrading, which is probably part of the reason they can't be officially supported. But in reality i am sure the risks are low as those prepared to put in the effort and with the skills are likely to be clued up to developing good tracks in an environmentally sympathetic way.

The thread got me thinking, and I doubt 5% of the tracks I have walked on in Aus through my life were officially constructed. I am sure they were just routes people took that started to get a pit of a pad formed, and on the more popular ones increasing markers and maybe some works around certain sections of the route.

I do a fair bit of off-track walking and often think it would be good to get more awareness out. 99.9% of people would never think of doing a walk unless it was on the National Parks list (people on this forum are all from the 0.1%!). Sharing GPS routes or very basic marking (e.g. reflective markers on trees) is all that is required. For most types of country (there are exceptions) a single file foot track has close to zilch environmental impact.

[tastrax]

That's poor advice Clarence.

I am aware of people creating new clandestine tracks in national parks with no support from National Parks. They do stupid or degrading things, which is probably part of the reason they can't be officially supported. But in reality the risks are high as many of those prepared to put in the effort and with the skills (maybe) are unlikely to be clued up to developing good tracks in an environmentally sympathetic way.

The thread got me thinking, and I doubt 5% of the tracks I have walked on in Aus through my life were officially constructed. I am sure they were just poorly planned, straight line routes people took that started to get a bit of a pad formed, and on the more popular ones increasing markers and maybe some works around certain sections of the route were required after the impacts became unacceptable.

I do a fair bit of off-track walking and often think it would be good to get more awareness out. 99.9% of people would never think of doing a walk unless it was on the National Parks list (some people on this forum are all from the 0.1%!). Sharing GPS routes or very basic marking (e.g. reflective markers on trees) is all that is required. For most types of country (there are exceptions) a single file foot track starts the environmental impact.


Forums like this are meant to educate people - not set them on a path to illegal track making! Clearly you have had bad experiences in the past but hopefully Hunsta does not head down the same path as you. Each state may have different approaches but its forums such as this that should be setting the standards and educating people on responsible use of our natural environment.

[hunsta]

Ok Ok. As one who does like to do the right thing, I'll try the ask permission process first. This way I tread on no beurocratic toes. Still wouldnt hurt to have the trail remapped out before hand. But this does leave me with only one shot at it.
craig

[davidmorr]

Sorry if this has been covered before, but how difficult is it to get a new walking track opened in a NP I have a small NP where I live which has 2 small tracks on it. From one of them I can see potential for 1 or 2 more.
If they were mapped properly, and didn't overly disturb the ecosystem of the area and relatively safe, would there be much departmental hassle?
Has anyone else tried( and we are talking Qld here)?
Or am I just being nieve?

Just keep walking along the same "off-track" route, and magically a track will appear!

[tastrax]

Ok Ok. As one who does like to do the right thing, I'll try the ask permission process first. This way I tread on no beurocratic toes. Still wouldnt hurt to have the trail remapped out before hand. But this does leave me with only one shot at it.
craig

Much better approach. Re mapping out the trail - try and keep the grades down on the track. The best gradient is between 8 and 14 degrees (if you have a clinometer)

[PeterJ]

I have seen a lot of crappy tracks that have developed often by someone marking the shortest distance between two points. Others have just developed that way because it looked OK to go over a particular bit of ground without thought of the country being traversed; once a pad starts to be obvious the degradation begins.

I spend several days a year trying to fix these appalling tracks.


Peter

[puredingo]

I would of thought the origins of many tracks developed from animal pads being used by more heavy footed humans? One thing is for certain the local fauna in any given area will always take the easiest, safest route when traveling from A to B.

[tastrax]

Animals seldom walk straight up and down fall lines which was much more common for "pioneer" walkers (at least in Tasmania). Early "track cutters" were often much better as they used horses or mules and they would prefer lesser gradients so they built tracks with a gradient suitable for them. At times they were also investigating possible railways in remote areas so they were looking to reduce grades!

Google is your friend if looking for information on track maintenance or track planning. You get a lot more hits if you use "trail" rather than "track" (which brings up railway track maintenance!)

https://www.google.com.au/search?q=trai ... 8Qf48oHgBg

https://shop.parks.tas.gov.au/ProductInfo.aspx?id=148

[clarence]

Forums like this are meant to educate people - not set them on a path to illegal track making! Clearly you have had bad experiences in the past but hopefully Hunsta does not head down the same path as you. Each state may have different approaches but its forums such as this that should be setting the standards and educating people on responsible use of our natural environment.

Don't worry, I take it as a compliment that a PWS person disagrees with my advice.

If I was in the same region as Hunsta I'd give him my copy of Gorrell's track building manual, and be out there helping him/her mark out and cut in the track, just to make sure he/she was setting the standards and being educated a little.

The reason "illegal" trails proliferate is because national parks services strangle people (like Hunsta's) reasonable expectation to use of the bush and simply push it underground. I'd rather people be out making tracks than sitting at home watching footy. One of the most experienced outdoors people I know used to say "Have you ever seen a ranger in a 'real' national park?". I'd go even further and ask "have you ever seen a ranger in any National Park other than driving a 4wd or collecting entry fees?"

National parks services can dictate all the rules they like, but have a very limitied ability to enforce them. Fostering goodwill with the community goes a lot further than imposing rules which cannot be enforced. Employment with the National Parks does not automatically give them some supreme moral authority as many such employees believe.

Hunsta is free to follow any advice he wishes, but I guarantee that even with buckets full of determination, there is no way his vision of a track will materialise if he tries to deal with the national parks bureaucracy- but I'd happily be proved wrong.

Clarence

[PeterJ]

...............there is no way his vision of a track will materialise if he tries to deal with the national parks bureaucracy- but I'd happily be proved wrong. Clarence

I have been involved with a group who have built two sections of track on Thark Ridge in Tasmania. It was to create a track on hard ground to replace degraded pads and we found working with PWS not a problem. The approval took a bit of time, but the project went well and I feel we built up a good relationship with PWS.

[wobbly]

It depends on what you are trying to achive, if its a properly signposted new track that will be shown on maps then you've got little alternative but to work with or through the parkies- eventually.
If its just a route/unmarked track you are after that maybe only you and your friends know of/use then follow davidmorr's advise and just start walking it -assuming you are comfortable navigating off track. Who knows you may even find someone has been there before and parts of your route could already have unoffical pads on it.

Good luck either way
cheers
Peter

[north-north-west]

I'd rather people be out making tracks than sitting at home watching footy.

And, of course, there's no middle ground, is there? Like walking without a track. for instance? Or just using existing tracks? Oh, no it's build it all where you want it, or become a potato . . .

[clarence]

There's a lot of middle ground.

That's the point I made about dealing with national parks and wildlife services- unfortunately too many employees of these organisation don't see any middle ground or compromise. Instead they have a propensity to deal with matters in an authoritatian manner, creating unnecassary animosity and ill-will with the community.

That's why I made the suggestions I did, encouraging Hunsta to avoid dealing with the bureaucracy. Hunsta's original post dealt with creating a new track, not "walking without a track" or "just use exisiting tracks", so that is the matter I addressed.

Hunsta specifically asked if 1) there would be much departmental hassle; and 2) has anyone else tried it before. Because I am in a very good position to answer both of these questions I gave him my honest advice. Not everyone likes it, but I gave him my honest opinion.

To repeat what I wrote previously "Hunsta is free to follow any advice he wishes".

I know there are a whole lot of people out walking, running and biking the trails I helped create. Criticise me if you please, but I think this is a very good thing.

If you wish to criticise, please don't use straw man agruements. Straw man arguements, by their very nature, tend to rule out any middle ground.

Clarence

PS I notice your post has been edited since I made this reply, north north west. (?)

[Nuts]

I don't disagree that it will likely be tedious, probably more likely the response negative. I'd suggest just asking the local ranger.
If it will be of the scale to need help they may even provide a tracky with a chainsaw ; ) If you need further help (or other avenue) you could try Consevation Volunteers (basically a team leader, transport, insurance for you, your friends.. or a group they can muster). There have been many track projects completed in this manner (and in NP's around Australia).

By the same token they may have very good reasons for not promoting a particular area.. and we pay them to consider such things.. It would help to know their reasons either way..

[Supertramp]

Forums like this are meant to educate people - not set them on a path to illegal track making! Clearly you have had bad experiences in the past but hopefully Hunsta does not head down the same path as you. Each state may have different approaches but its forums such as this that should be setting the standards and educating people on responsible use of our natural environment.

Don't worry, I take it as a compliment that a PWS person disagrees with my advice.

If I was in the same region as Hunsta I'd give him my copy of Gorrell's track building manual, and be out there helping him/her mark out and cut in the track, just to make sure he/she was setting the standards and being educated a little.

The reason "illegal" trails proliferate is because national parks services strangle people (like Hunsta's) reasonable expectation to use of the bush and simply push it underground. I'd rather people be out making tracks than sitting at home watching footy. One of the most experienced outdoors people I know used to say "Have you ever seen a ranger in a 'real' national park?". I'd go even further and ask "have you ever seen a ranger in any National Park other than driving a 4wd or collecting entry fees?"

National parks services can dictate all the rules they like, but have a very limitied ability to enforce them. Fostering goodwill with the community goes a lot further than imposing rules which cannot be enforced. Employment with the National Parks does not automatically give them some supreme moral authority as many such employees believe.

Hunsta is free to follow any advice he wishes, but I guarantee that even with buckets full of determination, there is no way his vision of a track will materialise if he tries to deal with the national parks bureaucracy- but I'd happily be proved wrong.

Clarence

Clarence your attitude to this is pretty disgusting.

I see many rangers in a real national park, the one that I work for & yes they do more than just drive around in a 4x4 & no they don't collect fee's! You will find the people hired to work in the visitors center's or fee collection booths are usually not rangers. I suggest you get your facts straight before you comment in future.

This view you have against Parks & wildlife rangers is pathetic. It make you sound like one of those people that hate the police as well, it's the same principle isn't it? They stop you from being allowed to do certain things (because they have been told to & are in the position where they have to uphold the law) there are Act's & Legislation's that they as an employee of the government have to follow & enforce if/when needed.

You will also find that they can enforce quite a bit, but most choose not to. Instead they choose to educate the public instead of fining them every time someone makes a mistake, that to me is "Fostering goodwill with the community".

Please tell me Clarence, how many times have you done actual research on all factors of building a track to fall within the governments legislation & Act's, to avoid damaging sites of significance, like Aboriginal Heritage sites or early settlers historic sites, vulnerable areas that contain threatened or endangered fauna or flora? Don't forget you then need drawn up a plan of how to implement the track work to fall within those guidelines & to avoid damaging those sensitive areas, not just that but you have to have safety plans drawn up to make sure no one gets hurt whilst building said track. There is also the ongoing maintenance issues (are you willing to go in there every few months to check on the track, or after every big storm to check for fallen trees?).

It's not as easy of walking up to the first ranger you see in the field & saying that you want to build a track your self, there is a lot more to it than just doing that (& yes they would most likely say no).

So again Clarence, how many times have you done all of the above & how many times have you been refused?

[maddog]

G'day Supertramp,

Clarence's attitude reflects nothing more than healthy distain, widely held in Australia, for the mindless bureaucratic tangles that burden us today. Many of the fine tracks we now enjoy, such as those in the Blue Mountains, were built by bushwalkers for bushwalkers. These would never have been built if our predecessors gladly suffered attitudes such as yours. Perhaps you should be more considered before you rush to impose judgement.

BTW an Act of Parliament is legislation.

Cheers.

[Supertramp]

G'day Supertramp,

Clarence's attitude reflects nothing more than healthy distain, widely held in Australia, for the mindless bureaucratic tangles that burden us today. Many of the fine tracks we now enjoy, such as those in the Blue Mountains, were built by bushwalkers for bushwalkers. These would never have been built if our predecessors gladly suffered attitudes such as yours. Perhaps you should be more considered before you rush to impose judgement.

BTW an Act of Parliament is legislation.

Cheers.

G,day maddog you sir have CLEARLY miss understood what I said. Or better yet I take it your on Clarence's side?...I'm thinking the latter.

I encourage more tracks to be made just in the correct way. Sure if you want to go out and destroy possible sites of significance or damage vulnerable areas go ahead, just don't blame anybody but yourself when you get caught or fined!!

The section I have highlighted in your comment should have not been written at all. My attitude towards what exactly hmm, please tell me?
Show me where I said building a track is wrong? My comment was pointing out to Clarence that it's not as simple as walking up to the first ranger in the field & asking for permission to build a track, you need to go to the senior management of the national park with an actual plan.

When were the tracks in the Blue Mountains that you were referring to built? Many decades ago I'm thinking? You might need to get with the times & come to the realization that things have changed for better or for worse, either way you need to accept them.

[clarence]

Disgusting? Pathetic? Thanks for your feedback.

As I wrote earlier, I take it as a compliment that a PWS person disagrees with me.

I do check my facts and do my research. If you look at the post "The science behind hazard reduction burns in national parks" (viewtopic.php?f=5&t=13877), you would realise that I have a reasonable understanding of certain issues related to national parks management amongst other things (I won't rabbit on about my formal qualifications and experience in the area). If you read that post you will also notice that I am prepared to acknowledge when parks and wildlife services happen to get it "right".

As far as research on track construction, please note I referred to Gorrell's publication, which was one of the main references I used when teaching track construction to TAFE and greencorps groups in the past. I have been involved in cases against unauthorised land clearing of threatened species in a nature reserve (I was the one who identified the threatened species on the site) and have discovered and reported significant aboriginal sites and been involved with their management with traditional aboriginal owners. During and after my time the NPWS I was heavily involved in identification, interpretation and lobbying for protection of several European heritage sites.

If I have offended some rangers (or other national parks employees), I apologise to the 30% or so who do a very good job. I acknowledge there are some excellent, dedicated, hard working and sensible parks and wildlife staff who are worth their weight in gold. Sadly, these are in the minority in my opinion.

Making comments about being "one of those people that hate police as well" is not too different to a straw man arguement. As I wrote before, if you wish to criticise, please don't use straw man agruements. (BTW I note north north west's criticism of me has been edited since I made my reply).

Maddog's response in support of my general position sums it up pretty well. It is about a "healthy disdain.. for the mindless bureaucratic tangles that burden us today".

It is not about "sides' that myself or maddog or anyone else may be perceived to be on. I previously stated that Hunsta is free to follow any advice he wishes.

On a lighter note, my first response was going to be: Supertramp, I know I'm blood-y well right, so you should give a little bit, but I changed my mind because I was being a dreamer.

Clarence

[maddog]

G'day Supertramp,

We may assume that whoever intends to blaze the trail is reasonably familiar with the area. If threatened species, etc, are a concern a person may chose to conduct a quick audit of the area. A little background reading, a topographic map, a search of the records (EPBC, BioNet, etc), to determine the significance of an area. This should take all of a couple of hours. Then out to the site and start refining the route.

You should find some perspective. Many walkers would have committed such crimes. What is the likely impact of the activity? In most cases it would involve little more than markers, the trimming of the odd tree or shrub with a pair of snips or a machete, the odd stone shifted, and the hope that in the future others would follow those steps.

How would you compare this with the impact of the tail of a tropical cyclone? A bulldozer clearing a fire break? A small fire? A group of scouts on a camp? You were not misunderstood, but please, spare us your sanctimonious claptrap.

Cheers.

[north-north-west]

We may assume that whoever intends to blaze the trail is reasonably familiar with the area. If threatened species, etc, are a concern a person may chose to conduct a quick audit of the area. A little background reading, a topographic map, a search of the records (EPBC, BioNet, etc), to determine the significance of an area. This should take all of a couple of hours. Then out to the site and start refining the route.

Why may we assume that? Plenty of pads have formed (and eventually become recognised tracks) simply because people went where the going was easiest, not because it was the least damaging to the environment.

[Supertramp]

G'day Supertramp,

We may assume that whoever intends to blaze the trail is reasonably familiar with the area. If threatened species, etc, are a concern a person may chose to conduct a quick audit of the area. A little background reading, a topographic map, a search of the records (EPBC, BioNet, etc), to determine the significance of an area. This should take all of a couple of hours. Then out to the site and start refining the route.

You should find some perspective. Many walkers would have committed such crimes. What is the likely impact of the activity? In most cases it would involve little more than markers, the trimming of the odd tree or shrub with a pair of snips or a machete, the odd stone shifted, and the hope that in the future others would follow those steps.

How would you compare this with the impact of the tail of a tropical cyclone? A bulldozer clearing a fire break? A small fire? A group of scouts on a camp? You were not misunderstood, but please, spare us your sanctimonious claptrap.

Cheers.

Pull your head in.
Please show me where I said I have a problem with building a track?