Another death on Overland Track

[taswegian]

[quote]consequences will be dire. /quote]
Is that part of the problem? These days those 'consequences' can be overcome in many ways.
Up the mortgage, get another whatever, hit the back button, rely on the services to fix our dilemma, etc.
Unfortunately as we are discussing here and Iluv rightly says there's no 'back button' to press and 'dire' is the outcome.

I do believe there needs to be some very in your face warnings and past examples in very appropriate places.
I can see Parks being sued because they failed to save or avoid an untimely death.
And concerns that it might turn some away should not influence the placings.
Recent years has thrown up some very ridiculous cases where people have sued councils and won.

[wayno]

how often do you see a track advertised with a picture of a storm? theres usually pictures of what looks like something akin to paradise. yet what are the chances of striking a storm at a place like the OLT? its not like the olt has any shortage of visitors, advertise it for what it is... somewhere where snow or a cold rainstorm can hit year round and put pictures of that weather in the advertising

[ILUVSWTAS]

There are signs like that Wayno, And as tastrax has said somewhere in one of these threads, they are working on having them in several different languages. Atm there are 5 different languages if I recall his post correctly.

[cjhfield]

How about when you pick up your walking pass you sign a brief simple form that says something like:

" I recognise that people have DIED from walking this track poorly equipped and confirm that I am carrying:

- a waterproof jacket
- a warm jumper not made of cotton
- a warm hat
- leg coverings other than shorts or jeans."

They tick the items and sign. No inspection.

When you sign your name to something it makes you confront the issue. If you lie, well that was your choice but you had the information and considered it. It would make people realise that this is a serious requirement. The cost would be minimal.

Chris

[stry]

How about when you pick up your walking pass you sign a brief simple form that says something like:

" I recognise that people have DIED from walking this track poorly equipped and confirm that I am carrying:

- a waterproof jacket
- a warm jumper not made of cotton
- a warm hat
- leg coverings other than shorts or jeans."

They tick the items and sign. No inspection.

When you sign your name to something it makes you confront the issue. If you lie, well that was your choice but you had the information and considered it. It would make people realise that this is a serious requirement. The cost would be minimal.

Chris

A lot of effectiveness achieved simply and inexpensively with that suggestion. The simplest responses are often the most effective. Well done !!

A little fine tuning needed to ensure that anyone signing understands that carrying the items suggested and signing, does not imply a guarantee (by Parks or anyone else) of survival.

[wayno]

if you enter a back country sports events, you usually sign a document stating that you realise you may suffer serious injury, hypothermia or die, maybe that should also be in any document to be signed by bushwalkers on the OLT

[ILUVSWTAS]

And what about the off season when a pass isn't required?

[wayno]

And what about the off season when a pass isn't required?

can't win em all.. at least you'll get the high season when most people are going,,,

[ILUVSWTAS]

can't win em all..

Hahaha exactly, and ftr, i'm, sure parks would love to have the funds available to put measures in place. Sadly there have been many cuts recently, job losses and well they just have better things to do IMO than check every person doing this walk to ensure they are appropriately prepared!!

To be honest, I think there are too many PW people in this area and they could be elsewhere doing OTHER things, like clearing the illegal fireplaces in the WOJ and on the Sth coast track, clearing the huge amount of fallen trees from the farmhouse\Bobs tracks. Etc etc.....

[icefest]

can't win em all..

Hahaha exactly, and ftr, i'm, sure parks would love to have the funds available to put measures in place. Sadly there have been many cuts recently, job losses and well they just have better things to do IMO than check every person doing this walk to ensure they are appropriately prepared!!

To be honest, I think there are too many PW people in this area and they could be elsewhere doing OTHER things, like clearing the illegal fireplaces in the WOJ and on the Sth coast track, clearing the huge amount of fallen trees from the farmhouse\Bobs tracks. Etc etc.....

Fireplaces at least, are something we can remove ourselves. I try to cover up/hide them when I see them.

[ILUVSWTAS]

can't win em all..

Hahaha exactly, and ftr, i'm, sure parks would love to have the funds available to put measures in place. Sadly there have been many cuts recently, job losses and well they just have better things to do IMO than check every person doing this walk to ensure they are appropriately prepared!!

To be honest, I think there are too many PW people in this area and they could be elsewhere doing OTHER things, like clearing the illegal fireplaces in the WOJ and on the Sth coast track, clearing the huge amount of fallen trees from the farmhouse\Bobs tracks. Etc etc.....

Fireplaces at least, are something we can remove ourselves. I try to cover up/hide them when I see them.

Maybe, but they are ever increasing. And the point being I would like to see a parks employee somewhere other than the OT. I never have. Not ever anywhere ever ever.

[icefest]

And the point being I would like to see a parks employee somewhere other than the OT. I never have. Not ever anywhere ever ever.

Come to think of it, neither have I...

But I have seen recent infrastructure on the WA, and SCT, so maybe I'm just there at the wrong time.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Yes they do some excellent work there no doubt. And with the flying in and out of sputniks.

Alot of the track work is done by volunteers/contract workers unless I am mistaken?

[cjhfield]

I would hope any form that was required to be signed would be clear in its intent - to ensure people carried these items. As soon as the form looks like some sort of legal liability waiver we all glaze over, don't read it and sign at the bottom.

Whatever items are mandated should be available for purchase at reasonable cost. It no good expecting people to back track to Launceston . But my recollection is that these items are available in the Parks shop at not outrageous price.

Out of season walkers should already have some experience. The form could be at the walker registration station anyway for that time of year.

I guess a more extensive list could be handed out with the pass with something like:

"LAST CHANCE!

The following is a list of items that should usually be carried on an undertaking into a wilderness area such as this. It is strongly recommended that you check this list to make sure you are adequately equipped. None of these items is available on the track. Now is your last chance to collect any missing essential item."

Followed by a more traditional complete packing list.

Chris

[Mark F]

The moment there is some sort of gear check in place I suspect that a legal liability is established should the check not be undertaken or skimmed over and things go pear shaped. All the literature and the booking web site cover the required gear pretty thoroughly.

Sending prospective walkers too many messages only increases the likelihood that they will all be ignored or confused.

Remember that not everybody on Cradle Cirque is walking the OLT, so linking the check to OLT walkers is not going to cover the field and omits those least likely to be prepared - day walkers.

A couple of suggestions. Make OLT walkers aware that in bad weather there is an alternate, more sheltered route via Scott Kilvert. At Scott Kilvert it is easy to either overnight and then walk through to Windemere next day, or walk through to Waterfall Valley the same day. Many people I have talked to seem unaware that this possible or have never actually looked at their map.

Overall I think Parks has done a reasonable job of making people aware of the issues but a couple of key messages at the start of the walks, visitors centre and website.
1. There is no guaranteed accommodation on the track - you must be fully self sufficient.
2. There is no guarantee that you can be rescued in a timely manner, weather and other conditions often make rescue impossible for days at a time.

[Nuts]

That's a good post Mark, some good points describing the situation. Maybe it's worth saying that (as a percentage) the number unprepared is likely very low. Your last two points seem to be often missed but the info is around, depending on how much personal responsibility is taken in researching these things.

So so.. poor topic for this sort of discussion, too many assumptions..

[wayno]

to put it into perspective, there are more dangerous trips around, Cascade saddle in the south island has had people break bones pretty much every year for years, someone has died on the track every other year for the past ten years.. all they did as a result of a coroners inquest into the last death was to put a bigger warning sign in about the risk of death..
the tongariro crossing has somehow avoided more than one death in recent years, i'd say thats more down to the skill of the sar helicopters flying in bad weather, there are numerous rescues every year, including one rescue of fifteen people..

[eggs]

Calm down Iluv. We saw some workers doing major track works on the Mt Anne track.

Did you miss the guys doing Frenchman's Cap?
Most of your walks aren't on official tracks anyway.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Thanks Paul, I agree totally.

No Brian, we saw track workers on the new Frenchmans track, but they wern't PW Staff. They were track builders... They did however say they were working with a guy from the Queenstown office at times tho...
I have done hundreds of walks on tracks, barring Mt Field or the OT area have never seen one staff out there anywhere.

Edit, actually that's not true, on one of the dozen trips i've done out to Hartz, I saw a field officer emptying the bins at the carpark once.

[Nuts]

haha, lets see.. yeah, fair enough comments..

except that the staff you'll see in that area are most likely going to be on contract too.

[north-north-west]

A hut along Cradle Cirque would encourage people to set out on a walk in poor conditions as they would think it is safer with the extra hut there.

A problem with the current OLT booking system is that a lot of people turn up by bus after lunch and by the time they get their passes sorted, etc, it is after 2pm before they start the walk. Then they have a long steep climb, then feel obliged to climb Cradle Mt, followed by a very rough section along the Cirque. It can start to get cold as soon as the sun gets a bit low, well before sunset. Combine that with a southerly wind and they're doomed. Well possibly.

I think we need to get people started much earlier in the day, while it's still warm and sunny. Checking gear won't help, that would just end up with more people making late starts. Changing the bus timetable would be good, so they have no excuse for a late start.

This amazed me when I was up there recently. Coming back from a walk during the late afternoon/evening, there were people heading off on the OLT towards Waterfall Valley - some still doing the Cradle summit - as late as 6:30. There would have been at least twenty who would not have made the hut/camping area before dark.

[Strider]

Why is darkness an issue? Have Headtorch. Will walk.

[north-north-west]

You, me, people who know what they're doing, sure. But most of these were complete novices.

[Tortoise]

Why is darkness an issue? Have Headtorch. Will walk.

I figure that risk factors have a habit of multiplying rather than adding together. Darkness (+ the added cold), even with a torch, I think would significantly increase the chance of injury & then hypothermia. That's probably partly because of decreased visibility, partly because I think there's a tendency for people to push on when very tired, instead of taking a break. I find I have to go a fair bit slower than in daylight. There's also more chance of people straying off the track - as NNW says, there are heaps of novices.

As an aside, this can apparently happen all too easily in daylight. Last week we met someone at Pelion who had mostly walked in Switzerland, where different tracks have different coloured markers. Apparently there's an arrow near the Kitchen Hut toilet pointing down to Suttons Tarn, which she happily followed on her own, still following markers. At 6.30 or so that evening, she started getting worried that the others who had gone up Cradle hadn't yet caught up with her, so she made her way back up to Kitchen Hut. Fortunately she timed it well, so she bumped into the friend/?guide who had run back from Waterfall Valley hut to look for her. She was very upset by that time, and may easily have panicked and made an unwise decision had she not been found.

[wayno]

you'll be surprised in the popular areas people who do day walks without a head torch, a group set out to climb ngauruhoe.. 2200m on a day walk, they arrived at the top at sunset, they had no idea how big it was and lost track of the time.... no track up there, rocky, they had inadequate footwear.... and it got cold fast despite being summer., they had no warm clothing... they had to call police to get them out, places like that people dont realise how high they are to start with, its not a massive gain in elevation in teh sceme of things but when you're starting your walk several hundred metres above sea level inland and you're ill prepared, it can lead to interesting times...

[Lophophaps]

can't win em all.. at least you'll get the high season when most people are going,,,

The word "going" is very apt. For those that succumb it's a case of going, going gone. Do PWS read these threads, or should the better ideas be made known to them?

[Nuts]

Yes, they do. They also likely have considered options long before they are discussed here. Not that it isn't worthwhile discussion, what the public expects of them.. Contact the OLT manager and point him at the topics to make sure?

[mikethepike]

I really surprised me a couple of years ago to see people walking to the summit of Kosciusko in early summer dressed little differently as to how they would to walk down a suburban mall in mid-summer. There was a ranger on lookout there keeping an eye on the foot traffic and he expressed equal surprise to me. Yes is was mainly sunny but these people must have little idea how quickly clouds can blow over and the temperature drop and it was the same night that we had foul weather on the main range. It snowed next day and not nice fluffy stuff but wet slushy stuff and strong winds.

[wayno]

thats the problem at altitude, the sun can carry so much heat, you have no idea how cold the air temp really is till the sun goes away, add wind chill or rain, and you're in trouble very fast... its sunny and warm when you set out to drive to your location or when you set out from the car, so the inexperienced leave the warm clothes behind....

[north-north-west]

I really surprised me a couple of years ago to see people walking to the summit of Kosciusko in early summer dressed little differently as to how they would to walk down a suburban mall in mid-summer. There was a ranger on lookout there keeping an eye on the foot traffic and he expressed equal surprise to me. Yes is was mainly sunny but these people must have little idea how quickly clouds can blow over and the temperature drop and it was the same night that we had foul weather on the main range. It snowed next day and not nice fluffy stuff but wet slushy stuff and strong winds.

I was caught out the first time I camped up on the Main Range (just under the Abbotts, on the Wilkinson Ck side) - Christmas morning I woke up to strong winds, thick cloud and heavy snow. By the time I crossed the creek the stuff was six inches deep. By the time I reached Rawson Pass, more than half the walkway was hidden by a foot of snow; much deeper in places. It was snowing on and off all day, even in Thredbo, but even while I was walking out and down, there were people going up on the chairlifts in shorts and t shirts.
After all, it was summer. And you wear shorts and t shirts and no jackets in summer, don't you. Never mind the actual conditions . . .