Making existing gear as warm as possible

[hobbitle]

Hi all,

I have a pretty good set of gear overall especially for temps down to about freezing (I feel the cold at night). The list is:

MSR Hubba Hubba NX (2 pax)
Exped Synmat UL 7 mat
(10 yr old) One Planet down sleeping bag, not certain of rating, I think fairly middle-of-the-range, maybe rated down to zero.
S2S Extreme Reactor liner thingy

Plus an excellent Montaine synthetic down jacket, some Montaine primaloft tops etc.

Heading out into the snow soon and it will be with this set of gear for the first time. I'm wondering if there's any cheapish way to maximise my warmth. Things I have considered is adding a footprint under the tent or putting a $7 Kmart CCF mat underneath the Exped? But not sure if either would be effective. To be honest I think I'll be OK but last year I suffered some very long uncomfortable snow camping nights in my summer tent, with old 2.5cm thermarest and cotton liner... so I guess I'm just being cautious!

Cheers

[Franco]

The CCF mat will give you a good temp boost.
No matter how warm your sleeping bag is, once you lay on top of it you need insulation under you, the sb does not provide much warmth at all under you.
Take a pair of warm but loose socks to use inside the sb. You want to avoid restricting blood flow , they need to be clean and dry.
Wear a warm hat/beanie and light fleece/merino gloves and leggings too of course .
Don't wait to go to bed when cold or if you are anyway take a brisk walk around camp (don't get lost...)
A hot calorie rich drink before bed helps too ( hot chocolate for me )

Mind you I had in mind the Syn mat UL7 (R3.1) the DM version is 5.9 , that is the same rating as my std DM7 warm enough for me down to -7 or so.
(Syn mat plus CCF mat = R4.5 or so depending on the thickness of the CCF )

[hobbitle]

Thanks heaps Franco a lot of people have mentioned warm drinks / being well hydrated before bed are good.
I will take my CCF mat next trip and see how I go. It's bulky but doesn't weigh much. Seems like the best starting point.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[gayet]

Yes, I'd agree with Franco on taking a CCF mat. If it is the downmat 7 put the ccf between the floor and the mat as the downmat will provide warmth. The CCF will insulate the mat from the ground. Doesn't need to be a thick one as you aren't using it as a mat for cushy comfort as such but as an insulation layer. It will also aid protection against any sharp bits making it through the floor.
+1 for warm dry socks and beanie and gloves. Its the extremities that feel it first.

[Moondog55]

I'd add a plus for the CCF mat; if you had the funds/ pack space and were really worried I'd add a second CCF or even better a Ridgerest for insulation from the ground.
The second thing I would do now before you head off is to experiment on your lounge room floor
Do not expect the Reactor liner to give any temperature boost at all. Make sure the sleeping bag is clean [ although it is the wrong time of year to be washing a down item] and fluffed up in a commercial tumble dryer.
As you know the down provides no insulation when compressed to nil thickness; so if you intend to or need to wear an extra layer of clothing inside the sleeping bag try that combination now before going away and depending on it to keep you warm
If you can wear the thermals/ sox/gloves /beanie and one of those lofty insulation layers inside the bag without compressing the down then you have a 10C cushion
If the parka won't fit inside the SB without crushing the loft you will need a different strategy. An old technique was to sew a few buttons on the outside shell of the SB and appropriately placed loops on the best of the jackets although as I toss and turn at night that never worked for me
Use your warmest thermals for sleeping in and keep them dry
Ditto eating well and keeping hydrated

[Mickl]

First trip I used my ul7 mat I was cold which surprised me a bit. That was inside a dual wall tent with a 20f quilt. Last trip was colder and only thing I changed was adding a cheap ccf mat and was sleeping under a mid with no inner. I was a lot warmer even without the tent inner so ccf mat def makes a noticeable difference. Ridge rest is next purchase on the cards for me I think.

[hobbitle]

Moondog, why would the Reactor liner not do anything? I have found myself noticeably warmer since getting it at overnight temps around 4 degrees?

I don't really think experimenting on my floor at home would tell me much more than sleeping outside (grass not snow) the past few weekends has told me... !

Thanks for the tip about fluffing the bag. Is there still a point to going through the whole fluffing process if I'm just going to pack it into a compression bag to hike into the hills?? I'll definitely do it if it's worth it.

I'm actually trying to keep my in-bed clothing to a minimum as well as last winter when I was cold on snow it seemed that adding more layers just made me more uncomfortable (bulk) and not actually much warmer.

Mickl, I find I get cold from the air around the edges of the mat, actually. Which must be tough for bigger people because I'm small and hardly overhang at all. Also the MSR is pretty cavernous and airy if there's just me in it... So I guess the cold air tends to swirl around a bit.

Hadn't heard of the ridge rest, worth looking into! Thanks guys.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moondog55]

It may work as a space filler but the S2S claims are highly exaggerated, it may be that what you are noticing is the difference between a synthetic liner and your old cotton one
I agree on the clothing inside the bag if the bag is already tight; but it works very well if the bag is big
In winter I find the bigger mats I have gradually evolved to use make a bigger difference that the R-value itself and I I now only use Long Wide mats in winter
Perhaps a bivvy bag or SB cover will help?

[andrewa]

Bivvy bag/bag cover only seems to lead to increased condensation inside it, for me, and the down gets damp.

I occasionally use some 2mm CCF under my mat in the snow, which makes the tent floor more palatable. My exped mat has made more difference I think.

I also sleep in all my clothes, which may include my goretex jkt under a down one if its really cold. This certainly helps.

Plus food / chocolate before bed/warm drink/ water bottle with hot water etc, though I've never had to do this.

A

[Moondog55]

Another possibility that works and works very well for some of us, is the use of a vapour barrier liner. While these are usually reserved for very cold places I have found them very useful here. Whole threads on the subject
A cheap and simple VB is a big rubbish bag

[Orion]

The 3 am chocolate bar works well for me. It doesn't have to be chocolate of course but for some reason that's often what it is.

[hobbitle]

The 3 am chocolate bar works well for me. It doesn't have to be chocolate of course but for some reason that's often what it is.

Haha I could get amongst this suggestion pretty happily


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moondog55]

If you can keep it from leaking a hot water bottle filled with cocoa works too. I have a SS water bottle in an insulated carrier i keep inside my bag on really cold nights. An old woollen sock [ Explorer of course] and 5mm CCF keeps it hot for several hours and the heat leaking out adds a touch of warmth too

I got the waterbottle parka in an Op-Shop for a dollar and put the plastic bottle in the yellow bin

[earthgrace]

Pardon if I'm off-topic... How does staying well-hydrated help with staying warm? I'm afraid my poor brain says that this will just mean a freezing trip toilet trip out in the middle of the night.

[beean]

I'm not on the exact science but I'm led to believe it's something with keeping your blood circulating. I do know that when I start to get cold in the mountains I usually warm up after having a big drink and a bit of food.

As for the toilet trip, you could keep a water bottle for peeing in. That's what we do over here for winter camping.

[hobbitle]

I'm not on the exact science but I'm led to believe it's something with keeping your blood circulating. I do know that when I start to get cold in the mountains I usually warm up after having a big drink and a bit of food.

As for the toilet trip, you could keep a water bottle for peeing in. That's what we do over here for winter camping.

Not sure if as a female I'm quite ready for the pee-in-a-bottle thing!

Yes I believe that being hydrated means your heart doesn't have to work as hard, so energy can go towards other things like keeping you warm. Eating food before bed would kick your metabolism in and prevent/delay the fasting state from kicking in overnight (fasting state will lower temp too).

Sit-ups in the sleeping bag before sleeping sounds like a good idea too. Lots of ideas here, thanks everyone


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[beean]

Not sure if as a female I'm quite ready for the pee-in-a-bottle thing!

There's products around for this.. google she wee

[hobbitle]

Not sure if as a female I'm quite ready for the pee-in-a-bottle thing!

There's products around for this.. google she wee

I know


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[madmacca]

Agree with the CCF - a 10 mm CCF will add about 1 to the R rating (synmat is about 3.2 from memory).

Also, don't wear wet clothes to bed. The moisture will collapse the loft in a down bag, and degrade its performance, especially over 2-3 days. This is a particular problem in cold conditions, as the dewpoint (where vapour condenses back to water) can sometimes be somewhere inside your bag. I keep a base layer and sleep socks (and in cold conditions, thermal long johns) solely for sleeping - even on a dry day, the clothes you walk in can get pretty sweaty.

[north-north-west]

Yep. A set of merino thermals is light and adds a lot to your nighttime warmth. Always keep camp clothes separate and dry. That's a basic.

[Orion]

Staying hydrated, while perhaps related, is mostly a separate issue. Of course you want to be hydrated even if it means getting up to pee. If you're warm getting up isn't that big of a deal. You get a chance to see the stars (hopefully).

I think the pee bottle is mostly about not disturbing the sleep rhythm too much. Women can supposedly do it with a special attachment but I'm not qualified to comment on that. I had a friend who had mastered the pee bottle. He could do it while horizontal in his sleeping bag, don't ask me how. That way he would barely wake up, do his thing, and be back asleep quickly. But one night he fell back asleep with Mr. Winky still in the bottle...

The big thing about staying warm is your metabolism. That's the heat source. Some people are furnaces and it comes without trying and others are cold no matter what they do. For those of us in the middle eating helps a lot. It's like putting a log on the fire.

How cold does it get where you guys are? How wet is it? I'm curious how it compares to our (California) winter weather.

[Moondog55]

It isn't the cold Orion It's the humidity
Up the snow at the moment [ 0800 - Falls Creek Ski Patrol base] it is -4C and 99% humidity and a 20 knot wind
In these conditions you need far more clothing and sleeping insulation than at -25C and zero humidity.
These are real killer conditions; just like Scotlands highlands in winter
While it can and does get really cold sometimes the norm is that transition range 5C to -8C, add to that the effect of altitude ; which while it is only 1200meters is high enough for the effects to be felt; and the fact that most people don't have the week needed to become acclimatised and you may begin to see why fuss about being warm enough.

[hobbitle]

Really interesting post Moondog - thanks. Why does the humidity mean everything feels colder?

I didn't realise altitude has an effect too, though I would argue that 1200m isn't enough to make a difference, but everyone's different. Is this because your body isn't as efficient as getting oxygen to your tissues in general, so everything works less optimally including metabolism?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moondog55]

Surprisingly 1200m is enough to start making a difference and go up another 300 to 1500 meters and you can really feel it for up to a week. I have no real understanding of the physiological reasons except for the lower levels of oxygen.
Oxygen levels are much lower at 1500m. the air is simply thinner up there
The subjective feeling is that it takes twice as much work to do anything in that first week up the hill. Remembering that for many years I worked there and was once well acclimatised when I went back for last winter I felt I was dieing the first day pulling the sled
High humidity means high levels of water in your clothing, clothing insulation is 600 times less effective when wet so obviously there is an effect when damp. It takes a lot of kilojoules to push that water out of your clothes and if the air is already saturated it can't be removed as easily. So even if it is only a few grams of water that need to be pushed out of the clothing the effect is very real. Water and water vapour are very good conductors of heat.
While I won't ague against the clothing choice of experienced people who have experimented to see what works for them I would advise beginners to not use or wear woollen underwear or even woollen sleeping clothing as it holds too much water.
In fact there is an argument in favour of polypropylene. For sleeping in, as polypro is the most hydrophobic of our cheaper materials and the warmest weight for weight as well as the cheapest it will be warmer than wool. Hydrophobic material is one of the reason we saved for mohair jumpers in the old days; mohair [ and cashmere too] holds less water inside the fibres than wool does

[beean]

All the water in the air makes it a very good heat sink. The layers of air in your insulation must be warmed by your body, which takes energy. Water takes much more energy to warm than air, so humid air takes more energy to warm up, and is also slower to warm than dry air as your body temperature is constant. So stoking the fire is all the more important as you'll be using much more energy to warm your insulating layers.

I'm not sure how much altitude has an effect at those low elevations though, the drop in oxygen saturation of the blood doesn't start to affect most people until 2000m or so (where it drops about 5%). Everyone reacts differently though, so it could be an issue.

[beean]

I think Moondog got in just before me!

[Orion]

Moondog, that's kind of what I figured.

Interestingly, the Australia Apparent Temperature formula predicts the opposite, that the apparent temperature will rise with increasing humidity. I wonder what that model is based on? It sure doesn't fit with my experience. Near-freezing temperatures are often wet. Insulation loses efficiency and the moisture in the wind carries away more heat.

But I don't experience the same altitude effect that you're talking about. When I visit Yosemite Valley (1200m) I feel like I'm still at sea level. I'm sure there's a measurable difference in my physiology but I can't detect it. It isn't until I get higher, maybe 2000m, before I notice anything at all. And the "twice as much work" point for me is a lot higher, higher than the California mountains (4000m). The elevation where O2 pressure is 50% compared to sea level is about 6000m 5000m. Of course you can't just pop up to that elevation and expect to do any work.

[Moondog55]

1500m is where most athletic training takes place here and where the hypobaric tents are set to.

Couple of interesting articles

http://www.altitude.org/altitude_training.php

Interestingly in Wikipedia I see that 1500m is termed high altitude

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Effects_of ... _on_humans

At 1500metres oxygen is at 80% of that at sea level, 20% is quite a drop

[hobbitle]

Yes the apparent temperature thing is interesting, we know that on clear days with no cloud and no precipitation they can often seen much colder than if there had been rain and cloud cover holding the heat and moisture in.

But Moondog's (and beean's!) explanation of why high humidity makes us damper, and makes it harder for us to dry out in the cold, makes perfect sense... Very interesting! Thanks both of you.

I also learned in physiology that the drop in O2 doesn't really start happening until about 2200m but it would be different for everyone. It certainly had an affect when I was at 5000m, it was only about 1-4 degrees above zero which shouldn't be too bad with good gear but the body was struggling on all fronts, including keeping warm.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Moondog55]

That table is [ I think] for heat related stress, where sweat cannot evaporate to cool you down and that effect is as we all know very real
Twice as much work is my "Subjective" feeling for me personally but does seem to apply to most people in the first few days if the usual non-athletic holiday skier