Firing gun within campgrounds

[vicrev]

Still 12 too many !...I cannot see the reasoning behind comparing gun deaths to walking across Hoddle st...Next it will be the victims fault for being in the bullets path.....Sport shooters I can understand,carry a gun into a camp/park area,Why?....The gun lobby keeps on about the 1st & 2nd am in the US constitution,Swiss gun laws,We live in AUSTRALIA we..... do....... not.... need...guns !!

[neilmny]

...........not a park.............Does that justify discharging a firearm in/near a park ??

Just to clear a point vicrev, it wasn't a park it was a bush camp in a state forest.

Sorry N, It's called a Seniors Moment..

Hope I got my commas right!

[vicrev]

[puredingo]

I do. Feral cat population ain't gunna kill itself?

[stry]

Still 12 too many !...I cannot see the reasoning behind comparing gun deaths to walking across Hoddle st...Next it will be the victims fault for being in the bullets path.....Sport shooters I can understand,carry a gun into a camp/park area,Why?....The gun lobby keeps on about the 1st & 2nd am in the US constitution,Swiss gun laws,We live in AUSTRALIA we..... do....... not.... need...guns !!

we.....do.....not.....need anything except air, food, water and shelter. Start jettisoning !!!

[vicrev]

I...will...not.....jettison....my...corkscrew..!

[Moondog55]

Feral cats foxes rabbits goats camels donkeys horses water buffalo sambar bentang and canetoads
I quite like firearms I grew up with them and I respect them and admire their ferocious, clean, functional design, a well designed tool is a thing of beauty. I also like swords and fighting knives , cooking, music, my kids and grandchildren
To restate something I said a couple of years ago; start worrying about some real and very dangerous issues; antibiotic resistance bacteria, quickly mutating influenza viruses, climate change and rising sea levels and population pressure on water and food resources. Those things won't kill a few people at random, they will kill billions

[Zone-5]

Guns are solely used to kill other living things!

I can't recall any other uses for them besides killing, maiming or injuring living things...

...not really the mindset you want around other people trying to relax, me thinks.

[flyfisher]

I grew up with firearms too, school army cadets, SSAA,target shooting and clay birds.

Also hunted wallaby, rabbits, deer etc so I have no fear of firearms but respect the damage that they can cause.

The OP did say that the campsite was deserted (or seemed to be) police said it probably wasn't illegal so really what's the problem.

Please don't continue with this pointless argument.

Bottom line is: some people hate firearms and/or hunting. So be it, but let's not hate one another.

Please lock this topic.

Flyfisher.

[mickb]

People anti-gun but buy and drive cars specifically designed to drive double the speed limit. Supporting and contributing without complaint to an entire industry which puts cars into kids hands to abuse and wipe out other innocent drivers in numbers far far higher than gun related deaths.

People anti-gun but every soccer mom wanting to own a suburban SUV and run the risk of reversing over their kids everytime they get into it

People anti-gun but apparently NEED to wear perfumes, use cosmetics, and have ten times as many household product brands as we really need...all loaded with chemicals tested on puppies, rabbits and monkeys, killing millions of animals a year, and in a lot more gruesome and protracted fashion than a quick bullet to the brain.

People anti-gun but drink and thereby condone and support the liquor industry responsible for the whole lot of deaths combined above.

Where do you want to stop?
Big dogs...check the kid attack statistics, there is a lobby group hunting to get rid of your pets believe me. And they are not needed.
backyard pools...kid drownings there is a lobby group against that too. Not needed either.
Horseriding for kids....broken necks, and you guessed it, who needs to ride a horse these days.
Motorbikes.... enough said about their injury record...
Rugby and AFL broken necks and lesser but still maiming injuries on kids and adults. none of them needed, all avoidable by banning both sports.
Pot handles hanging over stoves... a lot of kids with 3rd degree burns. Are pots needed. Maybe we put cameras in peoples kitchens so we can monitor the whole population. You watch my kitchen I'll watch yours.

Seriously guys, the government cannot control 90% of what we do in our spare time , nor would we want them to. All we have to do is control ourselves not to *&%$#! up the next guy (and the next guys hobby) too much.

When it comes to guns they are a low percentage issue alongside alchohol, cigarettes, cars that can drive more than 100kmhr(aka all of them!) and motorbikes.

Common sense prevail please.

[corvus]

Interesting Rant,
Why do we need personally to own guns ? good food is readily available ,why do we as the the Alpha Species feel the need to sneak up on an unsuspecting animal/bird and deprive it of life for our pleasure ?
Speaking as an ex "sporting shooter" now driver ,drinker, non smoker,soap user , Shampoo and aftershave user, Male Suv Driver XV Subaru , I wonder ?

[GPSGuided]

After the SUV, perfume, grog, big dog, pool, horse, motorbike, rugby and pot handle, 'people' still find them not enough and have to have a gun? Can't satisfy some people!

[mickb]

Interesting Rant,
Why do we need personally to own guns ? good food is readily available ,why do we as the the Alpha Species feel the need to sneak up on an unsuspecting animal/bird and deprive it of life for our pleasure ?

Same reason we deprive pleasure from animals by eating them, when vegetables and vitamins are proven to sustain life. We feel entitled in some way to commit the act, or just plain enjoy doing it. I'm sure hunters enjoy hunting and killing the animal or they would not be doing it, that's pretty simple

You could ask why do people feel the need to sneak up on unsuspecting cows, herd them into pastures, castrate them to make them more edible, and then shoot them in the head and sell them to non alpha males who can't understand why people would want to kill a cow in the first place, but don't mind eating one while they ponder the matter

[maddog]

I do. Feral cat population ain't gunna kill itself?

G'day Puredingo,

Shooters have been provided with ample opportunity and have succeeded in demonstrating that random shooting as a control technique is ineffective. Cats are, particularly in forested areas, as often as not benign, and in some cases may actually be beneficial (rabbits and other vermin represent up to 90% of their diet). Where they are a problem they may be controlled by dogs, and perhaps eliminated by baiting.

Personally I have no problem with shooters getting their jollies so long as they do so humanely and are not endangering others. But let us not pretend that these 'sportsmen' are making any substantive contribution to conservation outcomes. Quite simply they are not.

Cheers,

Maddog.

[sambar358]

I beg to differ with you there Maddog.

Contrary to what many seem to assume, our state governments do not have an army of "professional shooters" on their books to control feral animals but rather small numbers of regional-based individuals who may target specific problem areas/species at various times in their area under the direction of Parks, Rural Boards or other land management agencies. Certainly in my home state of Victoria Parks Vic are increasingly using recreational hunters to address specific problem species on both public land and National Parks. And of course these actions come at no cost to the government of the day as opposed to the expensive and often less-effective one-off use of "hired guns" to address similar issues such as an exercise to remove 40 feral goats from the Snowy River NP by an NZ-based company that cost the Vic govt about $1500 per goat......and there are still plenty of goats there as the NZ exercise was too costly to repeat to eliminate the goats entirely.

Recent Victorian deer-control activities using recreational hunters include significant reduction of sambar and fallow deer numbers in several small NP's north of Melbourne where around 100 animals were removed over 18 months, a 3 day closure of Wilsons Prom NP quite recently to allow recreational hunters under PV direction to cull Hog deer around Tidal River where 46 animals were removed.....and more exercises planned for this location in the future and a current cull of sambar deer by recreational hunters again under PV direction in the Bogong Unit of the ANP around Falls Creek with several 100 sambar likely culled over the next 12-18 months. While the Vic govt. has been aware of the on-going build-up of deer in these areas for some years it has in the past failed to address these issues via the so-called "professional shooters" that everyone seems to think exist due to cost issues. So they have come to recreational hunters for assistance and so far Parks is very pleased with the outcomes as mentioned above and certainly plan more of the same in the future and I expect that these initiatives will be extended when more areas with issues are identified.

In the broader sense....Victoria currently has almost 30,000 licenced recreational deer hunters and these numbers are increasing by around 10% per annum. In harvest surveys conducted by government agencies of licenced deer hunters over the past 5 years it has been estimated that the annual take of deer in Victoria exceeds 50,000 with the majority of these being sambar deer. I would hazard a guess that the annual kill of deer in Victoria by government employed professional shooters would be around 50,000 less than this number.....ie NIL ! And of course as the number of recreational hunters continue to grow so will the annual harvest increase as well.......anyone claiming that this is not a significant contribution to the lessening of deer numbers and therefore the reduction on their impact on the environment is clearly being quite blinkered in their view of this IMO.

Feral cats in the bush......I have a rule with cats encountered.....I shoot every one that gives me a chance and I don't mind alerting any deer in the area if it means one less feral cat ! Feral cats are the scurge of the bush and they impact heavily on small native animals, birds and reptiles......and yes a few rabbits if there are any about too. I usually un-zip any cat shot to see what it's been having for dinner and in a bush setting you can bet that it'll have a selection of prey inside it ranging from insects, small birds, lizards, bats, marsupial mice and I've even seen a few with possum, bandicoot and snake remnants inside them. Feral cats prefer to kill their own prey and they will hardly ever scavenge off a carcass or show any interest in a 1080 bait laid for a fox or wild dog and this makes them very hard to target by any other method other than shooting, they are the ultimate bush hunter and you never see a skinny feral cat ! Anyone claiming that the presence of feral cats in the environment is largely benign is kidding themselves.....the only good feral cat is a dead one !

Finally......like all of us.....I enjoy being out in the bush poking about enjoying observing nature and spending quality time in the environment......and I choose to do that while carrying a hunting rifle. I don't regard this as "getting my jollies" nor do I see myself as a "sportsman".....or a gun-toting Rambo or potential mass murderer for that matter either......I'm just another recreationalist out there enjoying a good walk in the forest and my chosen method of doing this is as a hunter. Unlike the negative image that the media are constantly portraying firearms owners as these days.......the vast majority of us are just ordinary people and you may-well live next door to one, one could be teaching your kids or be sitting opposite you next time you go to the doctors. Cheers

s358

[Xplora]

This discussion has eroded considerably from the initial question so perhaps the title should be changed. Perhaps also it is a discussion for a different forum altogether. In saying that I just can't help but comment on the 2 most recent respondents. Maddog, you show so little understanding of the nature of cats in the bush and in fact suburban areas. A recent CSIRO study showed cats will be responsible for more native wildlife extinctions than global warming. I do agree though that shooting cats is not an effective control method in that you need to shoot a great many to make any difference. They hunt mostly at night so it is more by chance you would come across one. There is research being conducted with regard to better ways to control cat numbers. I still shoot them when I can though. One less is one less.
It will no doubt be likely that deer will be elevated in their position to a proper pest at some time in the future and hopefully some money will be spent on researching better control methods. With pest status there will need to be some legislative changes to allow them to be shot in a Vic National Parks where hunting is allowed but that is another issue. The damage they cause is considerable and in the ANP they are threatening sensitive peat bogs which are habitat for native species. Hunters have taken a considerable number of deer but this is only a small proportion of the estimated number. Trophy hunters do not contribute to the conservation as much as those who take hinds or young deer for meat. Take out the females and you stop that breeding cycle. Take out the males and another male will take its place and cover several females. Deer carcasses left behind by hunters have also been demonstrated to be a significant food source for wild dogs when other food is scarce. It alters the survival rate of young pups before they are able to hunt. Sambar358 says there is no cost to the government for the participation of recreational hunters in culling programs. That is not entirely true. The hunters are not paid but there is a cost. There is a cost in the setup and running of the program, placement of remote cameras, hire of equipment (such as an ATV used in the Bogong unit trial), track maintenance for the area of the cull (the Bogong unit did not allocate enough money and it could not be completed). So far this cull has recorded 4 deer in 2 outings so to estimate 100 in 12 months is a bit of an overstatement considering they seem only to be doing it every other month. Perhaps the cost should be estimated for this cull. I am sure it would currently be well over $1500/deer. The area of this cull is not very hunter friendly and the guidelines prevent shots being taken in certain places. This park is also open during the shoot. Hounds are not being considered at this stage but they would do better in the area currently being attacked. It is good the recreational hunters are involved in projects like this but the impact on deer numbers long term will be marginal at best. Funny that rabbit control in the 1950’s using 1080 almost wiped out the Hog deer population and efforts were then made to restore it. Now they cull it again. Sambar are the hardest to stalk and shoot and they seem to be well adapted to our mountains. As shooting is currently the only method of deer control allowed we have to work with that. Bringing this back to the original question about firearm discharge in a campground. Deer hunters are working hard to restore their reputation in the eyes of the general public and our friend Sambar358 would agree those who besmirch their ideals should be dealt with. I concede the vast majority are descent people who do the right thing but there is a large element attracted to the sport who do not want to play by the rules. This is evidenced by recent enforcement operations particularly in the Dargo, Buckland and Mansfield areas. It is illegal to discharge a firearm in a campground or road and also to carry a loaded firearm in a vehicle. Unfortunately there is no direct evidence the person spoken to committed any offence and therefore the Police cannot get involved. A great number of popular walking tracks in Victoria are within the bounds of hunting so we all have to learn to get along regardless of what your personal view is. You do not have to understand or even accept why someone does what they do as long as it is not illegal or adversely interferes with others. It is their right. Some people can’t understand why I would camp on the snow. If someone breaks the law and you witness it then you should take details, bushwalker or hunter, report it and be prepared to give evidence if it aggrieves you.

[photohiker]

Cats are, particularly in forested areas, as often as not benign, and in some cases may actually be beneficial (rabbits and other vermin represent up to 90% of their diet).

Sorry, that is just rubbish.

Rough extrapolations from the capture rate
data suggest that the impact of domestic cats
on native fauna is substantial. Given
densities of cats in suburban Adelaide of 2/ha,
densities of birds of 10-30/ha and an
offtake by cats of 10-20 birds per year,
predation by cats will remove at least 50% of the standing bird
populations or destroy all
the young being hatched (Paton, 1991, 1993).

http://www.environment.gov.au/system/fi ... l-cats.pdf

[vicrev]

C'mon people,what has all this got to do with "Firing gun within campgrounds"..?..........

[maddog]

G’day Sambar,

I don’t live next to one but several of my work colleagues hunt. As I stated in my post I personally have no issue with ‘sportsmen’ as such, so long as they do not pose a risk to others, actual or perceived, and they go about their business in a humane way. While there is very little support for the proposition that random shooting has any impact on feral cat populations, I am happy to concede that shooting has a role to play as part of a well organised integrated pest management program.

G’day Explora,

The CSIRO study you introduce sounds a little speculative. It would be appreciated if you could provide a link or citation showing that cats are causing extinctions in suburban areas. BTW I have not argued that cats are not capable of causing extinctions. The important issue is where and under what circumstances.

G’day Photohiker,

Vegetation complexity is important when considering the extinction risk posed by cats. You provide a link to Dickman’s ‘Overview of the Impacts of Feral Cats on Australian Native Fauna’. You have no doubt noted that Dickman himself confirms my statement that in areas of high vegetation (or topographic) complexity the threat posed by cats is negligible (Section 6.1). The reason for this is well explained by Chris Johnston in his excellent book ‘Australia’s Mammal Extinctions’:

Burbage and Manly’s (2002) analysis of island extinctions revealed an interactive effect of climate and cats: cats were associated with extinctions on islands with low rainfall, but not with high rainfall. This is not surprising. Cats rely on their excellent eyesight for hunting and, as predators of medium-sized, active, ground-dwelling mammals, they are most lethal in open habitats where rainfall is low (Dickman 1996b). In moist habitats with dense ground vegetation, mammals can more easily avoid cats. Abbott (2002) suggested that cats did not cause extinctions in areas with annual rainfall above 500mm; Short (2004) thought the threshold might be more like 350mm…

As for the ecological benefit of the feral cat, in their comprehensive study Hanna and Cardillo (2013) conclude:

The complexity of processes that seem to drive extinction patterns on islands has implications for the conservation and management of island mammal populations. In Australia and other parts of the world where exotic species introductions have had a major impact on native faunas, the prevailing management paradigm emphasizes the eradication of exotic species whenever and wherever possible. However, as evidence accumulates for the effects of mesopredator release and trophic cascades, the wisdom of this approach has begun to be questioned (e.g. Johnson et al., 2007; Letnic et al., 2012). Our comparative results suggest that mesopredator release can have particularly severe effects on island mammal populations. Given that black rats are a major threat to native mammals, the eradication of cats, foxes or dingoes from islands could result in considerable loss of island mammal biodiversity through the release of rat populations. Paradoxically, with the last remaining populations of some mammal species confined to relict island populations, it is conceivable that eradication of cats, foxes or dingoes could lead to the complete extinction of some species. A more appropriate management programme should aim to balance the eradication of smaller and larger predators (Courchamp et al., 2011).

Cheers,

Maddog.

[corvus]

Wowsers maddog very succinct and I agree with all of what you said

[photohiker]

G’day Photohiker,

Vegetation complexity is important when considering the extinction risk posed by cats.

Have you been to Australia yet? In case you are not aware, there is a wide variety of vegetation from dense rainforest to basically none (desert). Concentrating on areas of high vegetation does not represent the whole range of vegetation nor does it inform the extinction risk over the whole area of Australia. Cats are predators to our small native mammals and birds, they are adapted to dry conditions and are very successful predators in areas of low animal populations.

There are animal sanctuaries with cat proof fences that have been established for some time. Well worth viewing especially at night to see small mammal and marsupial behaviour in feline free environments.

I suggest you visit Australia and make sure you visit a variety of terrain, not just thick vegetation areas.

[GBW]

Getting back to the subject of rabbits...

I remember going out with my Grandpa, his brother (Uncle Gus) and my Dad. These old timers grew up in a different world and hunting rabbits with ferrets and shotguns was the norm for them. As a kid it was quite an eye opener watching them net up the rabbit warren, feed the ferrets in (can't remember their names), catch them in the nets and break their necks, then any that escaped were blasted with the shotgun as they ran for their lives...gruesome stuff...these guys were gun crazed lunatics! After gutting and skinning the rabbits, we'd jump back in the EH and drive back to Brunswick where my Grandma would prepare a huge pot of rabbit stew and we all rejoiced....those were the days.

Fortunately I escaped mentally unscathed from the experience.

All that said, I don't have a problem with the hunting of rabbits, deer, pigs, goats and the like as long as it done in a safe and responsible manner. Guns don't worry me...as long as they're not pointed my way. I'm not a shooter/hunter (although I do fish) but still think the only good rabbit is a dead one.

As for cats...I've seen the carnage they cause to native bird life so the less of them the better too.

That's my (non-scientific) opinion.

[Nuts]

Sounds like it was a rifle.. and from a vehicle, a shooter, not a hunter.. either way i'd not approach.
btw. Tumut is a lovely place, towns a reminder of NW TAS.. imo the 'type' is a national treasure.. there was a time 'we' embraced our country heritage, admired even. I'm sure there were idiots around, did we keep them in perspective?

[Moondog55]

I think the way the discussion has diverged is an illustration of how times and attitudes have changed so rapidly.
GBW my uncles and Grandad would be just like the rellies you describe but they were some of the safest shooters I have ever met or been associated and all of them being combat Veterans none of them were at all "Gun crazed lunatics" as you put it

[GBW]

I wasn't being serious about the "gun crazed lunatics"...it just seemed like that as a kid seeing a double barrel go off for the first time! But you're right...attitudes have changed and I think that was my point.