Sleeping bag versus sleeping system

[jobell]

Hello all,

I'm after your thoughts on my current sleeping bag dilemma. With the AAWT looming large in my future (November 20 start) I'm still debating my sleeping bag choices. I own a 20+ year oldd Mont Brindabella that has lost a fair bit of down over the years but has served me well and I tend to use now as my bag for warmer walks. I had one cold night in it in August camped on the Upper Noosa where the temperature dropped fairly low (no frost but I reckon it was pretty close to 0'C) but was okay if a little cold in full thermals and my rain jacket. Not sure what it weighs these days but likely around the 1-1.2kg. I also own a Mont Franklin (rated to -12'C) that keeps me nice and warm, but weighs 1590grams PLUS the 135gram compression/dry bag required to squeeze it down to a manageable size in my backpack. I do often sleep in this last bag in thermals and socks to stay warm.I am planning (failing other options) to take the Mont Franklin on the AAWT, however, reviewing and re-reviewing my equipment list this is a standout in terms of weight and I'm wondering whether I might do better with a different combination. I am on a budget, and am running out of time somewhat before the start of this walk, but I was wondering if I bought a Sea to Summit Spark III (rated at 2'C for comfort, -4'C I think lower limit and -18'C survival) and paired it with my usual Thermarest Neoair, full thermals, socks and beanie, down jacket if needed AND my waterproofs as a vapour barrier (as needed) if I might be able to match the warmth of my Mont Franklin (not to mention cut a good kilogram off my pack weight....). Is there anyone out there who also sleeps cold and can provide feedback on whether they use a sleep system and how it works for them? Also, have you ever encountered adverse weather walking wise where a fair bit of this gear is wet by the end of the day and unsuitable for sleeping in, and what did you do in that case? Any particular feedback on the Spark III?

If I had more time and/or money I would seriously consider a 10F quilt - either a EE Convert or a ZPacks creation. Feel free to tell me to suck it up, carry the heavier Mont and save up for a quilt for my next walk....

[Moondog55]

My favourite subject.
Do you have a top budget in mind?
If you haven't bought a sleeping bag in 20 + years you may be surprised pleasantly by how good the current crop of SBs are from the reputable makers.
I sleep exceedingly cold and need much more sleeping bag than most
Have you tried a Spark 3 for size to see if your down jacket fits inside without compromising the loft of the bag itself?
I use a combination of a half bag and down jacket plus a sleeping bag in winter and the shoulder seasons and i have a choice of 2 half bags
one made for me by a forum member
viewtopic.php?f=53&t=19430
and a Western Mountaineering Tamarack
Also Evan from TerraRosa makes synthetic overquilts specifically as warmth boosters and you may want to consider a really LW but warm SB plus a synthetic overquilt

Good synthesis here
http://www.verber.com/mark/outdoors/gea ... ystem.html

But as I haven't bought a new bag apart from the Tamarak in years others are best served to answer specifics but I find a half bag plus duvet can give me another 5 to 10 degrees of comfort warmth to which ever bag I use them with 5C for the sewn thru custom bag and 10C for the Tamarak
Perhaps if your budget would allow it the combination of a Spark1 or Spark 2 plus a S2S Traveler would give you want you need in terms of warmth and flexibility and be less weight than your current warm bag

EDIT
I should add that I rate all my sleeping bags at 10C less than rated except for the WM Tamarak which I find spot on, which highlights individual metabolisms. My winter system is good for -18C and lower depending on which warm top I am wearing and could be pushed to -30C with my big down parka
I find that having warm legs and feet does much more for my sleeping comfort than wearing a top; hence the half bags

[Gadgetgeek]

I'm not sure what potential temps/wind chill you are expecting or should expect so I'll just give my advice being a cold sleeper from a cold country.

So, that 2 degree comfort rating is for a well fed adult male on a 35mm foam pad and wearing thermals. I think you are better off with the big bag, Even though the S2S seems to have a higher rating, I don't think you will have a good time. for comparison, I'm 70kg, and the moment I get cold, I wake up. So far if I take 10 degrees off the normal rating it seems to work out pretty well. My definition of a warm enough bag is to be able to sleep all night without chills. Layering really quickly gets to diminishing returns while sleeping. Thermals tend to be too tight, so they push blood out of your skin, making you feel colder than you really are.

Right now my sleep system is my hammock with quilts made from climashield apex. they work pretty well as long as its not too windy, I've had quite a few cold trips with them, but those have been right on the edge of where I thought they would work. humidity and wind are both killers of insulation.
I've also got a katmandu comet which is comfort rated to 11 degrees. its good for me on its own to about 18, 11 degrees would be possible with full merinos and socks, but otherwise it doesn't get a full nights sleep without waking up to warm up.
My serious cold weather bag is a north face Goliath which is rated to -18C, I've never managed to use it in the snow as was planned, but its done pretty well getting below zero. That gives you an idea of the sort of difference I get between rating and reality.

If there is a chance of being wet and cold, the best option is to have enough extra rating in the sleeping bag to be able to hang up your wet clothes to drip out, and be warm in the bag. Clothes can be dried on your body if you have energy and surplus heat, once your core temp drops though, you need something to help get back on track, and a dry over-rated sleeping bag is great. My plan is always that walking clothes are not to be worn overnight. I've tried it from time to time when I've gotten cold, but its just never worked. That little bit of humidity in your clothes from the day is just a killer.

If you are looking for a little insurance I would look at an AMK heatsheet, or one of the S2S liners. I'm a huge fan of bag liners over adding clothes, I find them much more comfy.

Hope this puts you on the right track, if you are going for a new bag, I'd be looking for something comfort rated around -10C for cool weather, hypothermia sucks.

[undercling-mike]

A 1.6kg sleeping bag does seem a bit excessive these days but on the other hand if the rest of your gear is lightweight you could probably get away with it without having excessive overall weight. It's adding 1kg extra compared to a modern lightweight sleeping bag/quilt which obviously will make a difference over the AAWT, maybe try a test pack if you haven't already to see if it's acceptable.

I haven't seen a StS spark bag but will nonetheless make some comments; firstly all the StS bags that I have seen have been well made with quality materials, the spark range achieves very low weight (almost as light as an equivalent quilt) but compromises too much in my opinion (maybe not too much in your opinion but that is for you to decide). In particular the 1/3 zip would be a problem for me as it really reduces the versatility of the bag in warmer conditions and also makes getting in and out a little less convenient. Add that to the narrow cut of the bag and I think it's something you'd want to at least have a test of in a shop before committing. In the StS range I'd probably be happier with the Talus 1 bag personally despite the weight penalty. I have friends who are happy with their StS Talus bags and they seem to be a good balance of features/specs for a conventional sleeping bag even though but I use quilts myself.

[Sandbars]

I keep seeing photos of people caught in snow on the AAWT. This week we were in Jindabyne (doing drops for the AAWT) - lovely warm morning, 23 at 9am. Drove to Thredbo, and it was about 10 degrees - made me starkly aware of the weather difference up high. Maybe we are overcooking it for the AAWT (I will tell you in December), but we are going a little warmer than winter in SA.

As far as sleep system goes: we sleep with a zpack quilt, wool long johns and a silk bag as a standard, (no longjohns if over 10 degrees, open the quilt of warmer than that) then add in beanies, neck scarf, mid layer and down jacket as necessary to stretch it.

I have one of the sea to summit thermalite liners - I was never sure how much they helped, even though it claims an additional 14degrees, then I went to a two person solution. You are welcome to borrow it if you think it might help you.

For me: sleep is one of those things I just need. cold = poor sleep = low energy and poor decisions. But I understand wanting to drop some weight too.

[vicrev]

Bought a $20 sleeping bag from Aldi today,supposed to be ultralight,will see if its any good for summer? (can't go wrong for $20).......

[Franco]

jobell,
If your Neo Air mat is the original one , it was rated R2.5, just good enough for a guy down to about 0c but a mismatch if used with a -15c sleeping bag.
This is how Exped explains the point :
Here's another thing to consider. The warmer the mat (higher R-value) you use the more impressed you will be with your old sleeping bag. You know, the one that's rated to 20° F.(-7c) but never seems warm enough below 32°F (0c). We've come to understand this not just from our personal experience, but from countless emails and phone calls from our customers who report it to us

If you are a cold sleeper, as you say, I would look for an R5 plus sleeping mat.*

The other point that comes to mind is about your Brindabella SB.
Has it really lost a lot of down or has the down partially collapsed ?
(that is : it does not puff up as it used to)
In the latter case a good wash could restore the loft.

*On another forum I suggested to someone with a similar problem to do a home test.
If you have a cold floor (not carpet) put the mat down on it and sleep inside your sleeping bag.
The next night (if similar night temp applies) sleep inside the same sleeping bag but on top of your bed and see if you feel warmer or not.

[Moondog55]

Franco Nice catch
But if the budget money is only there for a new bag than a CCF pad can add the needed extra insulation for minimum cost and weight

Jobell definitely wash the bag first before rushing out and buying new; you may be pleasantly surprised and it is way cheaper than a new bag
it's also the right time of the year to be washing a sleeping bag

[jobell]

Thanks guys, you've given me more to think about! The old bag has had a wash a year or two ago. It actually lofts surprising well despite its 20 years of shedding. Got to love the quality of a Mont sleeping bag! I hadn't considered a new sleeping mat, that's an interesting thought. My neoair is one of the originals, perhaps that's something I'll need to look at. I think from all the feedback I will carry the newer heavier and warmest bag (the Mont Franklin) on this coming walk and then look in the future at a quilt plus a new sleeping pad combo, something that I know will accommodate my down jacket. I bought one with a hood specifically with view to having a quilt. Luckily the rest of my gear isn't too heavy so even with a week's worth of food and two litres of water I will come in around the 18kg mark which I know I can manage. Appreciate all your input!

[Eljimberino]

My experience on the AAWT was that one night could be freezing cold and the next boiling hot.

On the freezing cold nights, if you can set your tent up out of the valleys. If you sleep inside huts some of them will be colder than outside.

Keep your sleeping bag dry at all costs - bags inside of bags.

Maybe you can pick up a second hand x-therm as others have suggested?

[Franco]

Took me a long time (years...) to figure out that many assume that their SB rating is an all around rating when in fact it just gives you an idea of the minimum temperature it will protect you ABOVE you not UNDER you.
For the under you protection the role is taken over by the mat.
And that is why one is not going to have a warm night at 0 degrees if the sleeping bag s rated -10 but the mat is rated plus 5c or something along those lines.
To make the point a bit clearer, if you walk in the snow with open Crocks and thin socks, no matter how warm your jacket and pants are,you WILL BE COLD.

To add...
Going from R2.5 to R5 is the same as going (in percentage) ,with a sleeping bag or a jacket, from 5 cm loft to 10 cm loft (or from 10cm to 20cm...)

[stry]

For me: sleep is one of those things I just need. cold = poor sleep = low energy and poor decisions. But I understand wanting to drop some weight too.

True (for everyone)!

[Franco]

Related thread at Backpakinglight :
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin ... _id=108019

[jobell]

Franco Nice catch
But if the budget money is only there for a new bag than a CCF pad can add the needed extra insulation for minimum cost and weight

Jobell definitely wash the bag first before rushing out and buying new; you may be pleasantly surprised and it is way cheaper than a new bag
it's also the right time of the year to be washing a sleeping bag

Hi Moondog,

What's a CCF pad?

[jobell]

I think I'm going to go out and pick up a better rated pad. Looking at the NeoAir Xtherm - probably the max given I'm a girl and my hips are about as wide as my shoulders. As it is I fall off my original NeoAir sometimes when I roll over in the night. Any other thoughts on brands though that I should look at? Anyone seen any good deals anywhere online recently?

Two weeks to go until the AAWT and the smell of dehydrating tuna is permeating the house....

[jobell]

Related thread at Backpakinglight :
http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin ... _id=108019

Found that link really useful - thanks Franco. BTW my double rainbow is about to get a workout. Can't wait!

Can't thank everyone enough really. This forum has been such a brilliant resource for me to date.

[Franco]

Can't thank everyone enough really.

I take Pay Pal.

Just kidding. Enjoy your DR .

[Moondog55]

Franco Nice catch
But if the budget money is only there for a new bag than a CCF pad can add the needed extra insulation for minimum cost and weight

Jobell definitely wash the bag first before rushing out and buying new; you may be pleasantly surprised and it is way cheaper than a new bag
it's also the right time of the year to be washing a sleeping bag

Hi Moondog,

What's a CCF pad?

Closed Cell Foam
Either the very cheap blue ones from K-Mart for $12- or something much warmer like the Cascade Designs Ridge Rest or Z-Lite

http://www.cascadedesigns.com/Therm-A-R ... ic/product
http://www.cascadedesigns.com/Therm-A-R ... te/product

I use the RidgeRest Solar XL but I'm a snow camper, the Z-Lite or even a 3/4 RidgeRest would be adequate for the other seasons, many reasons for using one, they cost very little and protect the more fragile mats and are insurance if you get a leak that can't be fixed

[jobell]

Ah, that makes sense. Dopey me. Thanks for filling me in!