a question about silnylon tents

[clonanster]

I've just ordered myself a brand spanking new tent with a silnylon fly (no PU inner coating).

I'm aware that the silicon means that the fly cannot be tape seam sealed, so my question is, do I need to do a seam seal myself with a liquid sealer or will it be waterproof without this?

[Strider]

You will need to seam seal yourself with a mixture of silicone and turps. I cant remember the exact ratios but Franco should be along shortly...

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[clonanster]

thanks

.... over to you Franco

[Turfa]

Or you could buy some ready made...

http://www.bogong.com.au/gear-aid-sil-n ... ealer.html

[Franco]

I make my own because I find Sil Net still not diluted enough to seep through the seams .
This is the way it should be done, having the slurry penetrate the seams soaking into the thread as it does that.
To do that you mix pure silicone such as Selleys Roof and Gutter or GE II silicone (translucent) with Mineral Turpentine (not vegetable/low odour)
Start with a blob of silicone in a jar (around 20g ) add a tablespoon or two of turp, mix and keep adding turp and mixing till you have a consistency of really runny honey or vergin olive oil.
Then paint on the seams from the outside and have a rag impregnated with turp to wipe off drips and or excess slurry.
Don't smoke when you do that ....

[photohiker]

I'm aware that the silicon means that the fly cannot be tape seam sealed, so my question is, do I need to do a seam seal myself with a liquid sealer or will it be waterproof without this?

Don't some silnylon tents come seam sealed from the maker?

What brand tent is it?

[north-north-west]

Don't some silnylon tents come seam sealed from the maker?

What brand tent is it?

Some do, some don't.

[Franco]

Don't some silnylon tents come seam sealed from the maker?
No they don't unless you pay extra to a "cottage" manufacturers (it is done as an exception because most small makers could not handle the load in the busy season ) but larger ones (IE those that have their tents made in China/Vietnam/Korea) don't offer it at all because of logistics.
(can't, for a start, have 300-500 tents seam sealed by hand at the factory because the day after the production run is done they are setting up to make another tent most often for another brand...)

When you see a "silnylon" tent factory taped it means that the underside of the tent is PU coated.
The reason why many do not have that coating it is because it greatly diminishes the tear strength of silnylon.

[Nuts]

The Seamsure liquid Ron sent seems pretty easy to use, being water based and runny. In SMD case, there are a lot of inny seams so you have to actually pull the material apart to expose the threads while sealing.. every stitch.. from the outside. A bit of an art form to say the least.

[north-north-west]

Hilleberg insist that their stitching system makes seam-sealing unnecessary. And I've certainly never heard of one leaking through the seams.

[photohiker]

Ok, so it is not standard, it is an option for some makers, not all.

I think I posted my TrailStar seam sealing here, ended up doing outer and top part of the inner because of the potential for leaks with some unusual seams.

edit: Found it. http://www.bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic ... 15&t=12166

Would the SMD be more work than the TrailStar, Nuts?

[simonm]

The Seamsure liquid Ron sent seems pretty easy to use, being water based and runny. In SMD case, there are a lot of inny seams so you have to actually pull the material apart to expose the threads while sealing.. every stitch.. from the outside. A bit of an art form to say the least.

The Seam Sure is a urethane sealant and won't work on silicone coated products, so is your SMD tent PU coated? It is also described by McNett as not having the permanency of other urethane based products like Seam Grip.

[Nuts]

It's a polyester version Simon but is the PU coating both sides? I did have the thought that, being water based, it wouldn't last as long, we'll see, maybe well enough.. there are in fact no seams over the sleeping area. Seamsure will apparently work on 'nylon' but i'd expect that's uncoated fabric, would just run off silicon or a coating.

I recall when sealing a bunch of Hex's, similar to the trailsar stitching pattern (though I think they were all flat felled), that I just did the flat seams inside, and just down to the mid points, must be inherently water resistant seams, as I recall no leaks.

[Orion]

The water based sealants are much easier to apply well but they do flake off after a season or three. Then you have to deal with the mess and reseal. I've found it's better to spend the up front time and use something sticky like SeamGrip up front. But for a full silnylon fabric (no urethane coating) you're better off with the somewhat too thick SilNet or a diluted version of either it or some other silicone product.

I love my Hilleberg. No sealing required. They stitched it well. Why isn't that the standard? Franco?

[Franco]

double post

[Franco]

"Hilleberg insist that their stitching system makes seam-sealing unnecessary. And I've certainly never heard of one leaking through the seams."
Google "Hilleberg tent leaking"

BTW, DO NOT use SeamSure on non PU coated silnylon.

[clonanster]

Thanks for the info and tips all.

The tent is an Exped Venus ii extreme - not seam sealed according to the manufacturer.

I'm currently in alice springs where I dont have access to a huge range of products locally - but we do have a bunnings so I think I'll give Franco's method a go!

[Nuts]

Have you tried a hose test clonanster?, you may not need sealant? iirc the model was initially supposed to be 'waterproof', similar to Hille design & may only need a dab here n there?

Iv'e seen our Hillebergs leak a drizzle, when it's been pointed out. The fabric inner must be effective enough though, never sealed, never seen bad enough to be pooling on floors.

[simonm]

I have yet to see a Hilleberg tent up close but from what I can tell they are sewn with a flat felled seam like most tents and use a treated thread which prevents wicking - there may be something else to it though?? I am getting in some treated thread to use on my tarps so I will be interested to see what effect this has.

[clonanster]

Have you tried a hose test clonanster?, you may not need sealant? iirc the model was initially supposed to be 'waterproof', similar to Hille design & may only need a dab here n there?

Iv'e seen our Hillebergs leak a drizzle, when it's been pointed out. The fabric inner must be effective enough though, never sealed, never seen bad enough to be pooling on floors.

The tent hasn't arrived yet Nuts, but I will set it up and give it a good hosing before i do anything. My concern is the external pole sleeves on this particular model mean more seams/ potential fail points.

I'm planning a trip to the tas central plateau in a few weeks (presuming the fire situation gets under control) so I could just pray for rain and test it in the field . Though the thought of 5 soggy nights doesn't appeal that much ..

There seems to be some differences in opinion about whether the sealer should be applied to the outside or inside... would it be overkills to do both?

This whole world of silicone flys is totally new to me having only just retired my 15 year old mountain designs peak tent - which was bomb proof (but *&%$#! heavy) - never had to reseal anything on it before the fly fabric finally gave way and ripped over the pole sleeves.

[Orion]

I have yet to see a Hilleberg tent up close but from what I can tell they are sewn with a flat felled seam like most tents and use a treated thread which prevents wicking - there may be something else to it though?? I am getting in some treated thread to use on my tarps so I will be interested to see what effect this has.

I recall reading something about keeping the needle cool to prevent enlarged holes. I don't know what the secret is. And I wouldn't believe anything is 100% all of the time forever, whether it's Hilleberg stiching, seam tape or home sealant jobs. I've seen leaks from both of the latter two, just not from my Hilleberg (yet).

But I've wondered why other manufacturers don't do what HB does. Too expensive?

[Strider]

But I've wondered why other manufacturers don't do what HB does. Too expensive?

Or prohibited due to IP laws?


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[Chezza]

But I've wondered why other manufacturers don't do what HB does. Too expensive?

Or prohibited due to IP laws?


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Or perhaps because the whole "cooled needles" business is a furphy, and what they're really doing is something else altogether.

[Chezza]

But I've wondered why other manufacturers don't do what HB does. Too expensive?

Or prohibited due to IP laws?


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Or perhaps because the whole "cooled needles" business is a furphy, and what they're really doing is something else altogether.

Can anyone with a silnylon Helsport, Fjallraven, Exped Extreme etc tell us whether the seams

1) need to be sealed by the end user, or

2) have obvious external seam sealer application marks, or

3) neither of the above apply, but do not leak

[Gusto]

Wilderness Equipment for a few year had some Silnylon tents that came seam sealed. But that was because they were PU coated on the inside. The problem with PU coating is that it does nothing other than add extra weight. IN theory it does increase the water head rating of the fabric too. But this was a redundant feature given the silnylon already had a satisfactory level of water proofing.

[Franco]

Can anyone with a silnylon Helsport, Fjallraven, Exped Extreme ...

There are several other brands that sell non PU coated silnylon tents, for example WE,Macpac,Lightwave,Terra Nova.
They all recommend you seam seal theirs.
Note that Bogong do state on their web site that the Exped Extreme are not seam sealed.
My guess is that they would not do so unless they thought they need to be....

[simonm]

I recall reading something about keeping the needle cool to prevent enlarged holes. I don't know what the secret is. And I wouldn't believe anything is 100% all of the time forever, whether it's Hilleberg stiching, seam tape or home sealant jobs. I've seen leaks from both of the latter two, just not from my Hilleberg (yet).

But I've wondered why other manufacturers don't do what HB does. Too expensive?

Yeah I did read about the needle cooling and it certainly looks interesting.

[Franco]

BTW, the hose test does not always work because with some stitching/designs it takes time before it starts to leak, that is of course if you don't in fact put a sprinkler over the tent for several hours...
This can occur by capillary action where, for example , after a tie out , tent loop or similar becomes wet and starts to send water to the other end.

[Orion]

Yeah I did read about the needle cooling and it certainly looks interesting.

I was just looking at the Hilleberg as I still haven't packed it away after our last trip. The flat felled seams and stitching look so ordinary. How could they be different? And yet the ones on mine don't leak. I remember all too well a flat felled seam leaking on another brand named tent some years ago, despite my application of seam sealer. I guess I didn't put enough sealant on a short section (I corrected that later). It was winter and cold, but warm enough to be rain. Just a steady drip drip drip. It can be a big problem.