Buying Tasmap Maps on CD Like Getting Blood from a Stone?

[Son of a Beach]

I've been trying for several weeks now to buy some Tasmap maps on CD from the government department (DPIW or DPIWE or DPIPWE or whatever they're called now). It's been an exercise in frustration that's been going on since the 10th of September - so that's 3 weeks tomorrow. And still no joy.

Has anyone else tried buying Tasmap maps from the deparment in an electronic image file format legitimately? What has your experience been?

Here's how it went for me:

10th September 2009
Download their PDF price list, and email the address on that document to request purchase.

~14th September 2009
Phone the number on the above list to request purchase. Told that none of the relevant people are available but somebody will phone me back the next day (which they did not).

17th September 2009
Received an email reply from my original email a week earlier that acknowledges my request and suggests that there's a suspicion that I may be intending to use their maps for commercial purposes without their permission because they are aware that I'm writing a mapping application due to an entirely separate email exchange with a different person there. However, in my earlier email dialogue with them which raised this suspicion in the first place, I had clearly explained that this was not the case. Specifically, the email they're worried about was sent to them on the 3rd of September and explained that I'm writing a mapping application, and I quote, "which includes no maps, but which requires people to supply their own maps (eg, scanned, or purchased map files)". The email was written to them to request permission to use a tiny portion of one of their "free" map images in the application icon, and this permission was granted.

18th-21st September 2009
As far as I'm concerned, they are effectively accusing me of lying in my email which raised their suspicions. However, I ignore this, and politely explain it again to both of the people I've been dealing with over a number of emails, and point them to the home page for the application that clearly explains in great detail how the application works, that it includes no maps, etc, and that I merely intend to use the maps for my own private purposes.

I also told them that I will no longer use their image for the application icon, or any of their images in the application, in the hope of removing the confusion that this earlier request appears to have caused.

22nd September 2009 (early morning)
Finally, they seem to get the idea, and say that they believe me (hoo-flippin-ray) and that they will email me a form requesting credit card details and agreement to the conditions of use.

23rd September 2009
After having not received the promised forms, I emailed them my credit card details and a statement saying that I agreed to the conditions of use on their document (which I also attached - hoping it was the right one).

Get a reply saying thanks very much, but we really need the details faxed on the standard form (which they finally attached to an email).

So I fill in the form, fax it back to them and email them letting them know that I've faxed it.

30th September 2009
I've just now sent them an email (1 week later, after hearing nothing and having no charge to my credit card) asking when I should expect to receive the maps, and when I should expect my credit card to be charged.

Crickets.

So that's my story so far.

Reliable sources have led me to believe that Tasmap maps are trivially easy to obtain in electronic form illegally, for free, in relatively little time, and certainly with a lot let hassle, and without being accused of illegal intentions. However, I would like to do the right thing and buy the maps properly. So why do they make it soooooo difficult and time consuming and stressful to purchase them legally? And that's apart from the fact that they're outrageously expensive. I'd like to buy the whole lot, but who can afford that?

I would really like to purchase these maps legally, but after 3 full weeks of trying, it appears that I've made little progress.

[photohiker]

Condolences.

You could probably do NZ cheaper, even taking into account airfares!

LINZ (Land Information NZ) recently released their 50k and 250k map images for free download This is how it should be. The taxpayers pay for the creation of the mapping and it is duly delivered to them without further hindrance. This whole charging for map delivery thing is just annoying double dipping.

[Son of a Beach]

Just goes to show how primitive we really are, here in Tasmania. That New Zealand website is really well done. It makes it very easy to find and to download the map(s) you want.

[photohiker]

Not only that, the maps themselves are pretty damn good.

A lot of data though, if you grab the whole set...

[Ent]

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[Son of a Beach]

I believe Jonny Appleseed have the maps. I have a set on my mobile phone, you know the one that did not work

Cheers Brett

I've not heard of them before, so Googled and found their web page (for which my eyes will never forgive me). Their web page was too painful for me to spend more than a few minutes trying to figure out what they really have there. Are they recent Tasmaps? What prices? What format? I need plain image files (such as JPEG, PNG or TIFF). I don't want to buy any other application to view them on, as I've already got a free map viewer application for the hand-held which I plan to use.

[Ent]

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[tastrax]

Hi Brett,

I am curious as I could not find the tasmaps on Johnny Appleseed. Also be aware that the images for use in OziExplorer are likely OZF3 format which is hard to use in anything but Oziexplorer. Also hard to convert into any other format.

update - heres an interesting article on Tasmaps... if only they could convert all this whizz bangery into simple saleable products

http://www.esri.com/news/arcnews/spring ... pping.html

[flyfisher]

I bit the bullet and bought Memory map topo which gives all 25k, all100k all 250k, and a lot of Tassie town street maps plus detailed city street directorys. There are a few of Vic. and a big one of the north island. Fairly pricey at $299 when I bought mine but down at least to $250 now.
But the can't be loaded into my Garmin gps so I have Shonky maps in there.However they can be used for uploading and downloading to and from the gps of tracks and waypoints.
ff

[Son of a Beach]

30th September 2009 (several hours later)
Receive an email saying that an agreement for personal use of the maps is being drafted ready to send out to me to sign and send back.

1st October 2009
I'm wondering why it takes over a week to draft such an agreement which is presumably the same for anyone else who purchases these maps. I email back asking if this is the same agreement that other purchasers of these maps have to sign.

A reply back (promptly this time!) explains that this data license agreement is for anyone who buys their maps. So why has it taken a week so far, and still is is merely being 'drafted'???

I'm sure it is not the fault of any individuals at the department. I gather they're probably severely underfunded and understaffed, as much as many other departments, but this kind of service is insane. After 3 full weeks, they're still 'drafting' and agreement for me to sign. And the only time anything appears to happen is when I nag them. They never explain their delays, or give me any estimate on when the transaction will be complete, despite my asking for some sort of time frame.

[Nuts]

Have you though Nik, that perhaps you are the first one that has actually asked to pay for the files?

[Son of a Beach]

Have you though Nik, that perhaps you are the first one that has actually asked to pay for the files?

That hadn't occurred to me, but you may be right! It certainly would explain a lot.

[photohiker]

I gather they're probably severely underfunded and understaffed

I was chatting to the proprietor of a local map shop the other day, and the subject of the department (SA) came up, as they were out of stock of one of the sheets I required. The map orders used to take no more than a day, but the order they were waiting on was predicted by the department to take 10 days as someone was on holidays !!!. The number of cartographers employed has also dropped dramatically - I believe they are down to just 5, whereas there were 40+ a few short years ago.

The upside for SA is that they actually have a 25k data product on the shelves so you don't need to go through all this palaver to get it or sign any license agreement - (the materials are inherently copyrighted "Crown Copyright" anyway, what's the point?) You still pay through the nose though.

[Ent]

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[Son of a Beach]

Having the maps on JPG would require quite a bit of space to preserve the level of detail but certainty would give great flexibility of application but you would need reference points such as scale and at least top edge GPS coordinate stored in a meta file. Hence you original search if the numbering referred to any thing in particular.

Yes, the grid reference is required. Tasmap provide the files as TIFFs (GeoTIFFs) which have the required information embedded in them. I don't know if this means it's in the EXIF info or elsewhere. If so, that would be easy to extract, but otherwise, as you said, this information is also easy to determine just by the map number, once you know how that's formulated.

My application requires this information to be in the file name, but I've developed some simple scripts that will easily do that for me based on the map number (and I may look into making it work generically for GeoTIFFs also, once I learn a bit more about them).

[walkinTas]

Nik, I thought you might like some reading on Geo-encoded TIFF & JPEG files. The pdf explains that the "geo" info can be in the files header section or in an accompanying file.

[Son of a Beach]

7th October 2009
Well almost another week later I've received nothing and heard nothing further about this agreement.

In the mean time, I've been investigating other options. I've trialled the free downloads available from MapConnect. They're a bit of hassle to download, and will take me a while to get them cropped, stitched, and correct metadata (for locations) attached, but they're free. They're only 1:250,000 scale, which is not really suitable for navigation while bushwalking, but will be fine for testing my application, and more than enough for my other intended uses.

So I think I'm going to give up on Tasmap. Their service is woeful, and their prices insane. They don't deserve my money.

[Lagaro]

Don't even bother just go and get the Tasmanian Memory-Map Navigator from the Tasmanian Map shop in Elizabteh St Hobart.
Then you have all the 1:25000, 1:100000, 1:250000 and more.
With a bit of effort and a few utilities like MOAGU (MOther of all GPS utilities) you can get them on your GPS!

[flyfisher]

Don't even bother just go and get the Tasmanian Memory-Map Navigator from the Tasmanian Map shop in Elizabteh St Hobart.
Then you have all the 1:25000, 1:100000, 1:250000 and more.
The Tasmaps "DVD" is a really big dissapointment are you really sure it has what you want?

Yep thats the one I've got and I'm happy with it.

ff

[Son of a Beach]

With a bit of effort and a few utilities like MOAGU (MOther of all GPS utilities) you can get them on your GPS!

I don't have a dedicated GPS unit. I just want to be able to get the maps in a standard image file format that I can use on my desktop computer AND on my handheld computer (which does have GPS functionality) via the mapping software that I've written myself.

Can MOAGU do this with the Tas-Topo files from Memory-Map?

[Son of a Beach]

14th October 2009
Finally received the contract in the mail. Yes, it's a TWELVE PAGE contract (with two copies sent along with the cover letter). I didn't even bother reading it. In what universe is it reasonable to require the services of a lawyer in order to buy some maps for personal use?????

I no longer have any desire to deal with such an agency as this in any form other than buying the occasional paper maps when absolutely necessary from third party retailers who actually are interested in my business.

15th October 2009
Tossed the contract in the bin.

Sent an email back to one of the people I'd been dealing with to cancel the order, as follows:

Hi XXXXXXXXXXXX,

Could you please cancel my maps order? Please destroy the credit card authority I faxed to you 3 weeks ago.

I'm now using the 250k maps available from the federal government at their Map Connect web site by free download instead. They're not as good as the 100k maps, but they will do the job, and the price is right.

In the unlikely event that you're not already aware of it, I just wanted to take this opportunity to point out that many governments provide fast easy and free access to their maps via their websites. One excellent example is the New Zealand government which has a great website from which you can download all of their 250k or 50k maps for the entire country.

I hope that the Tasmanian government and Tasmap will one day do likewise.

Cheers,
Nik.

There's an awful lot more I wanted to say, including the fact that it has been over a month between when I started trying to order these maps, and when the contract arrived at my house (and who knows how much longer it would have been until I actually received the maps?). And that they'd virtually accused me of lying about my intended use of the map images. But I don't think it's worth the trouble saying anything further to that beaurocracy.

[ollster]

I love it when having to jump through hoops to legally obtain an item makes copyright infringement a simpler, quicker and more attractive option...

Not that I would ever encourage such a heinous crime. I'm just sayin'.

[Ent]

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[Son of a Beach]

19th October 2009
And finally received a confirmation email stating that my credit card authorisation has been destroyed as requested (and that I don't need to return the contract in the mail).

20th October 2009
Received an email from Memory-Map support apologising for the long delay from an email I'd sent to them (something that nobody at Tasmap/DPIPWE ever apologised for), and confirming that Memory Map does not have any export feature, but that it can be used to print to PDF. Well, PDFs are easy to convert to any other format, so this may still be worth considering. Several orders of magnitude cheaper than buying from Tasmap!

[tastrax]

Ah, If only it was as easy as New Zealand. I sent over my portable hard drive and $25 and have now got all the Raster NZ 250K, 50K (Tiff and GeoTiff) and full vector data (ArcGIS) for the whole place plus the outlying islands. Now to start work on a few merges for OziExplorer.

http://www.linz.govt.nz/topography/topo ... index.aspx

[taswegian]

What disappoints me is the way they treat all data as though they fully own it. By that I mean the bought it - paid for it in cold cash, when in fact they get a lot of that info supplied to them for free by the people of Tasmania. And then we have to buy it back.
I won't go into it, but I have debated this on several fronts with the various custodians of the datasets over many years.

And then if you want mineral info you can download it for free!!
Different approach from different government agencies.

[greyim]

Of course, TheList maps are available online bit at a time for free, and can be added straight onto google earth (Share, Open in GE)
Maybe an app can automate something, but it would be an 'unauthorized' set I guess
I have shonkymaps running on a wince5 gps, its pretty good, out of date, but it has quite a few tracks marked

[Beeper]

What disappoints me is the way they treat all data as though they fully own it.

I work for DPIPWE, not in Tasmap. My dealings with them have also been frustrating, they like to play their beaurocratic games.

Control of data is nothing new, it brings a sense of power to the controller. Lose/release the data and you relinquesh some of your power. Have you ever tried to get data out of a scientist for example. Unfortunately Tasmap have not moved into the 21 first century yet as have other agencies. Providing a better service might help secure their future rather than their current path of control, licensing etc. With another round of job cuts coming up, something will give eventually.

[sirius Tas]

Nick,
You're probably lucky you didn't get them as they're woefully out of date. When with FT we had loads of trouble getting them plus they take forever just to update one map sheet. In the end we developed our own internal mapping which is far superior.
The maps I use for walking/geocaching are the Oztopo series from GPSOZ....darn good detail with quite a lot of walking tracks shown though the contours are not as good as the Tasmaps.