Up New River to Federation

[ILUVSWTAS]

Yeh he tried several different routes before succeeding, including going over Cox's bight somewhere... pretty sure they attempted any possible route....

[Ent]

Good work by the Mercury reporter. Noticed with interest the request to keep the name quiet and the embarrassment quoter of the walker. Hopes this "embarrassment" does not stop our young adventurers posting a report as this is how we all can learn. Correct me if I am wrong but did not another poster (the six month between post one) cover this route along with the excellent advice that you should spend more time planing escape routes than the trip itself and how he would only take a select group of his walking mates?

Also is it the group's first walk in the region as one poster suggested. I would love to see pictures of the area to get an idea what they were up against. I enjoyed the cannibal run report, especially the honesty aspect as this gave some idea of what you can expected with remote off track walking.

Cheers Brett

[jmac]

Thanks to Stu Bowling for alerting me by PM of this unfolding discussion, and asking for my thoughts.

Yes it's a fairly predicatable and disappointing outcome, given the route attempted, but we need clarification of a few facts before forming conclusions. Dave indicated that they intended to take 24 days of food, so why did they pull the pin on only day 10? Perhaps they could have waited a week for the river to subside, and still walked out via the SCT? I'm looking forward to reading the answer to that question and finding out where they were extracted from.

Yes my party also used this route, but in reverse. We also activated our EPIRB, but in different circumstances. Those who have read the article from Wild may recall that I had three broken ribs from a near drowning, on the last significant rapid on the river. One thing I can confirm is that it really really sucks to press that button, if you are a civic minded, conscientious citizen. I've been involved as a volunteer in many searches and successful rescues, so even though my rescue ledger is well in positive balance, activation really sucked. If my experience is relevant, it will take a few years and some significant successes for Dave's party to live down the stigma of assisted extraction.

Perhaps upon reflection, the more experienced members of this forum (myself included) must be more insistent upon the message that off-track bushwalking in Tasmania is an exercise requiring the gradual acquisition of skill, resilience and fitness; not least of which is resilience.

On the parallel thread about the Old River, I have posted my recollection of a trip from 1982, part of my personal journey from when I was also enthusiastic but just gaining experience.

Cheers,

John Mc.

[Dave Bremers]

I'm still in Huonville now, will post full story when I get some photos and time together. Thanks SurlyDave for not joining the witch-hunt, but presenting a balanced story.
Yes BW.com is making inroads, had a call from the Mercury (Dave) and the Police inquring as to the website.

So you know and can debate further, the reason for the SPOT activation was we had been trapped by an unmapped chasm that we had gone through the day before. The water had risen over a meter since then, making retreat downstream impossible. The swift-flowing current covered what had been a (relatively) easy upstream route and turned it into a death-trap. So upstream and downstream were out of the question, it meant that our escape route for that section (bobs knobs etc. or simply back the way we came) was also out. In hindsight (ie with knowledge that there is a chasm there) this was the one small section of the river we did not have an adequate escape route for. Obviously we didn't know this beforehand.
In any case, this is not when we set off the spot; we set off up the ridge we were on regardless, aiming the for Eastern Arthurs traverse track and Farmhouse Ck. After making 1.06km in 8 hrs one day, then 1.4km in 13hrs the next, we were out of water, and with the track still about 12km away we would be out of food by the time we got there as well. Any reliable sources of water were hours out of the way, further exacerbating the situation. We decided that it was better to call it quits before someone seriously injured themselves somewhere inaccessible even to helicopters.

[Dave Bremers]

Jmac I will call when I can, but so everyone knows we went for 21 days food, and were glad too after lugging it over the south cape range and through the scrub on the lower sections of the river. Pulled pin on day 11. And yeah it really sucks pressing that button.

[Ent]

Great to hear you back online and look forward to a report when you are up to it.

Cheers Brett

[ILUVSWTAS]

Credit to you for getting on here so soon Brem and giving your side of the story, The question is still there though, if you made it to the ridge with 11 days food left, why not bunker down for a couple of days and re-assess the situation? Also I wonder at the comment "before someone seriously hurt themselves somewhere inaccessable to helicopters" surely you must have known, most of the area you were in fits into that category......

anyway

Still, glad you made it out in one piece above anything else.

[BarryJ]

I'............................. After making 1.06km in 8 hrs one day, then 1.4km in 13hrs the next, we were out of water, and with the track still about 12km away we would be out of food by the time we got there as well................................

I think this sentenced answers your question, ILUVSWTAS.

[ILUVSWTAS]

But thats the point Barry, everyone knows thats the kind of speed you make in that area, Why do you think no-one takes this route regularly...IT'S HOSTILE COUNTRY, they were prepared for the possability of this kind of speed, why now surprised when they actually encountered it??

[Son of a Beach]

It's good to hear from you Dave. We'd all benefit from any lessons learned, so we're grateful for you're being willing to tell us about your experiences. It's good that you got out safely in any case.

To others here... There's bound to be questions that some would like answers to, but go easy on the guys, as they've just come out of what must have been a very stressful experience.

[Michael_Kingston]

I think this discussion highlights the issue of experience. Until you walk through really thick scrub you cannot truly imagine just how physically and psychologically tough it is. It is one thing to know that it might take 7-8 hours to walk 1-2 kilometres, it is another thing to experience it a couple of (or more)days in a row.

I am with ILUVSWTAS on this - youthful enthusiasm seems to have got ahead of the group. Have they done extensive off track walking on shorter, less complex routes in Tasmania before? Perhaps they also could have waited a couple of days for the water level to fall so they could backtrack out? The closest I ever got to chopper rescue was returning from Lake Rhona and waiting for the water level on the Gordon River to fall - it took three days but it finally did. the chopper was apparently coming out the next day to look as we had been reported overdue.

[Son of a Beach]

Any reliable sources of water were hours out of the way, further exacerbating the situation.

This is an interesting point. In South West Tasmania, everything is wet, and yet water is not easy to obtain for drinking. When walking in these areas, you need to make sure you know how to get water, because it usually is there, just difficult to access. My main source of water in South West Tasmania (when there's no lakes or creeks nearby) is the yabbie holes. These are quite common in button grass, as well as in some forests, and a wide variety of vegetation types. You just need a straw to drink the water from these holes (and they gradually refill as water seeps in from the ground around them). The water is clean and tasty.

I've used this method to get drinking and cooking water for two days without access to any creeks or lakes.

I don't know if this was possible where you were or not, or if you were aware of this issue, and the work arounds beforehand or not.

(Yabbie Straw information can be found here and here.)

I did once resort to sucking water out of moss, but it takes a lot of moss-sucking to satisfy a thirst!

[plaz]

What a riveting thread - the first example I've ever come across of the internet really trumping mainstream media, and so much the better for a happy ending. For what its worth here's my 2 cents worth.(probly less than 2 cents)

Firstly, yes it was clearly a risky trip - but congratulations on giving it a go. We need young men doing risky things, and this is a lot more sensible then the usual getting drunk and riding on the roof of your mates ute that passes as a young man's initiation ceremony round here. And if they'd pulled it off, well it would have been something.

Secondly of course rescue should be free. If we had a true user pays mentality then any lard- a$$ed smoker who has a coronary should be denied treatment - we thankfully live in a society where collectively we have decided a non judgemental safety net is extended to everyone, and isn't it great that we do. And the rescue services need to exist regardless - its not as if they are set up just to rescue bushwalkers.

Thirdly, if the epirb gave them the confidence to push a bit further then thats not all bad. Like it or not, unless you are walking naked living off the land all bushwalking is an interplay between the people, the equipment and the environment, and I think the role of modern electronic equipment in this interplay is still being fleshed out. If it allows people to contemplate and hopfeully achieve trips that would have previously been regarded as impossible is it any better/worse than previous equipment developments, like bushwalking boots/goretex /guidebooks etc.

Anyway, I am glad there is a happy ending and look forwards to further installments. I am hopfully heading up to the eastern arthurs this summer so will be interested to look over this area from afar.

[Son of a Beach]

I think the role of modern electronic equipment in this interplay is still being fleshed out. If it allows people to contemplate and hopfeully achieve trips that would have previously been regarded as impossible is it any better/worse than previous equipment developments, like bushwalking boots/goretex /guidebooks etc.

I don't wish to pass judgements on the people involved nor to take sides in the debate. However, I think the comparison between the service provided due to an alarm from an EPIRB/PLB and other gear such as boots/goretex/guidebooks etc is not a reasonable one.

Most bushwalking equipment, including expensive electronic devices such as a GPS, are paid for exclusively by the beneficiaries of each device. The service provided by setting off an EPIRB/PLB (ie, that of search and rescue), is provided by the government, and paid for by all tax payers (and the cost is not trivial). Don't get me wrong... this is a good thing. But comparing it with other bushwalking equipment is not entirely reasonable in some contexts.

[Ent]

Um? I in the school of camp that if the wheels fall off a PLB is a great thing to have but definitely do not hold to the view that it should be a crutch to tackle something that you would normally not do. It is an emergency device not an aid like a GPS. If you get increased confidence using a GPS then great, just make sure you have a backup plan when yours departs to silicon heaven. But using a PLB with the background thought of, arh what the heck help will come if it gets too difficult, is not thinking I aspire to nor believe should be encouraged or even tolerated.

I also hold that questioning people why they chose to activate a PLB and then contrasting with how you would not of used one not much help either. It is a personal decision and assuming it is not done as an act of "vandalism/laziness" I accept this as a cost of ensuring the safety of the greater good. A true tragedy would have happen had the intrepid adventurers attempted backtracking in a flooded river. Yes I fully understand that different people would have made different decisions based on their unique circumstances (food, mental state, experience, equipment, weather, etc) but I would much rather have people back safe and sound than have them making decisions with exhausted bodies and minds resulting in poor decisions.

The only thing I ask of any walker (me included) is to seriously consider beforehand any walk in light of their experience to ensure that use of a PLB is reserved for injuries/illness or exceptional circumstances (1 in 100 year floods, losing a pack in the river, etc).

Cheers Brett

[Son of a Beach]

...use of a PLB is reserved for ... losing a pack in the river

If you don't keep the PLB in the pack.

[stu]

and with the track still about 12km away we would be out of food by the time we got there as well.

So, by the sounds of it you were only half way to Feds / Geeves, putting you on Gibraltor Ridge somewhere (?) (or somewhere past the junction with the Salisbury River) when your activated your PLB? We'd all be interested to know where you were evac'd from.

Again, and this is my personal opinion, so I don't speak for anyone other than myself, I don't think this failed adventure is to be praised, even if it was undertaken in the spirit of high adventure. There were plenty of other trips you could have attempted to gain some necessary experience in this type of adventure first (POW's, Vanishing Falls etc. etc.); it seems the 'golden' aim of a 'first' new route (not certain anyway as other parties may have travelled this route at some time over the past 50 years) was the sole aim, more than a little arrogant & narcissistic in my (again, read 'my') opinion. What about doing your 'apprenticeship' in the South West like the rest of us have had to to gain the (quote jmac) resilience, mental fortitude & various skills required to try such a route as your failed mission. I'm sorry, but you were all in way, way out of your depth. Risk is fine but you need to also realize culpabilty for your actions.

Any reliable sources of water were hours out of the way, further exacerbating the situation.

Could you not have back-tracked to these reliable sources of water, (or in the interim) squeezed moss or looked for yabby holes? Would you even know what you were looking for without these skills being gained on other lead-up 'apprentice' trips? With 10+days food still available, you could well have sat out at least some of this time & attempted an escape route / waited for waters to subside, the activation of a PLB being a 'last resort'. Would you have know how to navigate yourself out of trouble if GPS / PLB were lost / broken etc. Do you have these intrinsic skills yet?

Sorry if I have sounded harsh & I do admire the spirit of the adventure itself, but I think you need to get a whole lot more experience before coming back for a second attempt. As others have said, would you have undertaken this route without a PLB? Don't forget the pioneers of hard off track routes in South West Tasmania all did it a lot, lot harder than we have to these days & a convenient evac was never an option to them; they'd be turning in their graves.

I'm very sorry if I offend anyone with my viewpoint on all of this (I also don't think I am alone in this viewpoint) & I really don't want to come across as being opinionated on this subject, but as a keen off-track walker myself I am passionate about remote adventures, but I am one who is still doing his apprenticeship after 3 years of concerted effort, and still expect to be doing so for a couple of years to come yet.

Stu.

[ollster]

Stu, I agree wholeheartedly and think your opinion is more than reasonable.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Oll, I agree with your agreeance

[David Mitchell]

I will not enter the debate over the advisability of this group embarking on this trip - there is enough of that already.

But as an ex-pat Taswegian and member of a volunteer SAR organisation I have to say "good on them" for being prepared with a SPOT and activating it when they felt it necessary. The alternative, when they would have been reported overdue, would have presented a horrendous & potentially risky task for ground-based SAR resources.

I would be interested to know the time interval between they activated the SPOT and when local SAR response was initiated.

[JamesMc]

Further to David's comment, an experience at work a few years ago taught me not to be reluctant to call a helicopter.

Someone was bitten by a snake, and the local ambulance was soon on the scene. The ambulance officer made the decision to call a city ambulance. It duely arrived. The ambulance people then decided they couldn't get my colleague to hospital fast enough so they called a helicopter. (The helicopter got bogged, but that's another story.)

If it's worth calling a helicopter when there's already two ambulances on the scene then surely it's OK to get one when you're stuck in the wilderness.

JamesMc

[ILUVSWTAS]

Snake bite is a fairly serious issue tho James.
Being stuck in scrub with 10days food supply and no real injuries except weariness is another matter.

Anyway im getting a bit over this debate, It was said by a few that they were taking on a big risk and most likely wouldnt make it. This proved to be the case.

Case closed in my opinion.

BUT lastly i'd hit the button on my PLB without a second thought if somone in my party got bitten by a snake.
If we were stuck in thick scrub suffering exhaustion i'd suggest a day or 2's rest and just ration my food then once suitably rested (or once swollen rivers had dropped) i'd try to go back the way I came and see how things progressed from there before hitting the button.......

[Jellybean]

I don't wish to offend anyone, but it seems unfortunate that the excellent advice that is being poured out now with regard to dealing with this environment - with the benefit of hindsight (e.g., strategies for dealing with seemingly impenetrable scrub or sourcing water when it seems inaccessible) - was not issued prior to the trip!? (At least that has been rectified now!).

On reviewing the pre-trip forum postings, yes, a number of people pointed out that it would be a difficult trip and one mentioned that there had been a failed trip in the past but I can't recall one posting that claimed they were taking on a big risk and most likely wouldn't make it (maybe that was discussed amongst some forum members and not committed to a forum post?). The general sentiment, apart from advising it would be difficult (and warning them to be prepared for that), seemed to be one of admiring the guys' sense of adventure and wishing them all the best? The strongly worded, "too inexperienced in this environment, shouldn't have done it" sentiment is only being expressed post-rescue.

While the guys must take responsibility for the decisions they made (and learn from them - I'm sure they will), it is also true that "you don't know what you don't know". In other words, you make decisions based on what you know, not what you don't know (because you don't know it). Hindsight is a wonderful thing!

Again, I don't wish to offend anyone. This forum provides a wealth of information and advice. Just my observation of this particular case.

The main thing is that the guys got out safely and can enjoy the benefits of learning from their experience.

[flyfisher]

Well said, Jellybean.

ff

[Dave Bremers]

Thanks everyone for your well balanced opinions, I appreciate the friendly and constructive criticism. It's a learning experience. As for those who aren't so balanced (not so much here but especially on the Mercury comments) you can go shove your uneducated opinions where the sun don't shine.
Everyone who has been indulging the use of their 20/20 hindsight give it a rest. If you check the forum posts before we left, hardly anyone had commented, let alone told us not to go. We considered all options before we left, but unexpected events threw things out of whack. We even considered the safety of those who had to come and rescue us and hence found a suitable spot to do so. The only thing that wasn't considered was the criticism we expected to face. And I'm glad that personally we have the fortitude to avoid that impinging on our decision. Also consider if someone had injured themselves, something quite likely especially without any water, everyone would be on here asking why we didn't call it quits when we had the chance. As a further note I have contracted a fever just in the last 36hrs from a tick I found in my back. I can't imagine still being out there the way I'm feeling now. That's what it was like towards the end of this trip - circumstances just built up in the wrong direction. Read my last post for the reasons we set off the SPOT.
As for youthful exhuberance, and the lure of a 'golden first' please hypothesise as much as you want. I will tell you that we are not glory seekers. Otherwise we would have become rockstars, not bushwalkers! I don't recall any groupies in my experiences.
A social psychologist once told me that a public forum + anonymity = all sorts of uninhibitied rambling. So please keep your opinions constructive and moderated otherwise I will just categorise your post as such and not take it seriously. So far the posts have been pretty good but just letting you know.
For those who are interested here are the google earth co-ords from where we were picked up. lat=-43.33295, lon=146.56328 Also, we set off the SPOT at 9:10am and the chopper arrived at 11:40am.

Anyway I'm off to the doctor.

[stepbystep]

Jellybean is spot on, unless advice not to go was done via PM, it aint here.
I'm an expert on what happened yesterday as well.

What many are interested in most Dave is how much off-track walking in SW Tas had your whole party done as preparation?
The scrub done here is legendary, so without to quote another member "serving an apprenticeship" this expedition was foolhardy in the extreme.

This is obviously a question you know the answer to and will take a brave man to answer honestly.

If nothing else your experience will hopefully help this forum to analyse and constructively question the motivations of such an expedition in the future.
Male bravado is a dangerous thing and I regularly see it expressed on this forum and well, everywhere in society, the result often is devastation for wives/children etc.

Take care, sbs

[Son of a Beach]

I think that jellybean, breminator98 and stepbystep are all correct here (although from different points of view). I reckon you really do need some substantial experience of this type of walking, in similar locations, before taking on such a challenging off-track scrub walk. There is no other way to understand what it can be like.

Unfortunately, there was no way of knowing if these guys had already had such experience or not, as they didn't say one way or the other, before the trip (that I could find when looking a couple of days ago).

There were some warnings before the walk commenced, but as was stated by another poster, perhaps the warnings were not harsh enough - nor clear and specific enough.

It was with similar thoughts to those of jellybean's last post that I started up the new Negotiating Scrub in Tasmania topic 2 days ago, in the hope that in future we'll have a good ready reference we can point people to, which hopefully will adequately illustrate how bad the scrub can be, and how prepared people need to be. Perhaps that topic should include a link back to here as another example of difficulties with the terrain/vegetation/rivers.

Of course, that topic cannot possibly prepare people for it, but it does try to advise that people need to experience the scrub in small doses before attempting an epic scrub trip, and that without such preparation, they should not attempt large scrub walks. Perhaps this is the advice we should be giving people who are proposing such walks and that nobody stated explicitly enough to get the message through before this walk?

Similarly, when warned that the walk was going to be "a world of hurt" (ie, exceedingly painful and difficult), perhaps the walkers could have asked for more specific information on just what that really means. When taken literally, that statement is a very serious warning indeed, but perhaps did not seem so serious because of the light-hearted way in which it was written.

Of course, it is not the responsibility of forum members to prepare other people for their walks - that is always the walkers own responsibility in entirety. However, we do want to be able to give good advice when we can.

For those who are interested here are the google earth co-ords from where we were picked up. lat=-43.33295, lon=146.56328 Also, we set off the SPOT at 9:10am and the chopper arrived at 11:40am.

This is the most interesting information posted to this topic for a couple of days. Thanks for sharing this, Dave. The location is of interest to the curious, and the rescue timing is of value to anyone who may need such a service in the future.

Anyway I'm off to the doctor.

All the best with the recovery!

[stu]

I think I speak for everyone, including my perhaps overly-heated at times opinion, that we are all glad you guys made it back safely & hope it was a learning experience for you all.

The criticism that has been dealt out also serves to reinforce to others contemplating such trips how hard they are & plenty of other people may be reading these (public) forums with similar thoughts of attempting hard routes without the necessary experience / guidance. I hope you realize that, from your experience, others should be taking away valuable lessons without having to go through the same dangerous position you found yourselves in.
What is any adventure without some life lessons & humility thrown in for good measure.

Yes, hindsight is a wonderful thing & perhaps some more of us should have been 'harsher' in our thoughts to you on this trip?
Unfortunately when one does this one also opens oneself up for criticism.
Surely you must agree that some criticism is more relevent than praise in this post trip analysis?

I didn't really get into the crticism / giving of advice early on as you had spoken to jmac & also had some fairly stern warnings from him on the inherent difficulties of such a route; there are few other people whose comments would have meant much more than his before your departure as he is quite well know for his experience on such difficult trips -I think you also spoke to him on the phone? I guess if he wasn't going to dissuade you from attempting this route then no one else would have been able to. Would any more blatant advice have dissuaded you from tackling this trip? Probably not.

Anyway, sorry for the diatribe, I only hoped that others may learn from your trip & its outcome, that is our public duty on such an open forum.

Hope the tick doesn't cause too much grief & hope you go about planning further adventures soon, tho maybe not so difficult ones next time!

I'm sure we'll all like to see some photos soon of this rugged area.

Stu.

[ollster]

Nik, I often feel disinclinded to express a more forthright point of view, as these forums get modded to hell with swearing filters, discouragement from strong debate and such. There is a certain way of putting something that cannot be properly expressed using polite language alone.

I think there was plenty of hinting that the prep Brem was doing was ridiculous (for his level of experience) in another thread and that only experience would prepare him. It's just no one was willing to say the hard words "you're ******* crazy and you may ******* die".

I think this has been a useful experience for forum members too!

Brem, hope that tick bite clears up. You should come for a walk with ILSWT, Stu, MJD and the rest of the crew sometime.

[Son of a Beach]

Nik, I often feel disinclinded to express a more forthright point of view, as these forums get modded to hell with swearing filters, discouragement from strong debate and such. There is a certain way of putting something that cannot be properly expressed using polite language alone.

There seems to be a lot of ongoing misunderstanding on this. There is certainly not any deliberate discouragement from strong debate on these forums, as we all believe that debate is a good thing. What is discouraged, is when people are being offensive. I think that any point of view can be expressed in polite language as strongly as with impolite language. It just takes a bit more effort and thought to find the right way to word things.

HOWEVER, I do totally agree with you that it is more difficult to put a strong negative point of view succinctly, and I can therefore see your point of view in relation to warning people about their potentially dangerous walking proposals. And I do agree that such strong wording could be of use in these types of situations. I hope that you can see that posts on this forum are NOT moderated for swearing alone (so long as the word censor catches them). Ie, people can swear to their hearts content, so long as the context is not offensive. It is entirely up to the reader if they see the swear words or the word censor's substitution according to their own sensitivities. So you can swear, and people can get the full gist of what your wording is. But people do still need to be careful about direct insults and such other offensive behaviour.

Again, I want to repeat that no post or topic on these forums has ever been moderated because they contained strong language, because they were part of strong debate, or because they expressed a forthright point of view. What does get moderated is personal insults and offense. I can't see any reason why strong debate cannot be done without resorting to personal attacks, insults, or offensive behaviour.

I think there was plenty of hinting that the prep Brem was doing was ridiculous (for his level of experience) in another thread and that only experience would prepare him. It's just no one was willing to say the hard words "you're ******* crazy and you may ******* die".

The phrase, "you're ******* crazy and you may ******* die", could be entirely appropriate in some contexts. It's difficult to be certain in hind sight, but I don't think I would have moderated that in this context. If I did, I might have simply changed it to something like "That's a ***** crazy plan and you may **** die" (and would usually have PM'd the writer to let them know it had been edited, and that they can edit it further if they didn't like the way I'd changed their wording).

I think this has been a useful experience for forum members too!

Absolutely. I think that when we do see people that we believe are planning something either beyond their means or completely crazy, it's worth jumping up and down and making a big song and dance about it. As far as moderation goes, I'll continue to aim to let people express their opinions strongly or otherwise, and will try to take the context into account also. There's no doubt that opinions expressed more strongly earlier in this topic would have been entirely appropriate (although I'm not sure if they would have made any difference to the plans or the outcome or not).

Brem, hope that tick bite clears up. You should come for a walk with ILSWT, Stu, MJD and the rest of the crew sometime.

Now THAT would be an apprenticeship. I'd like to try that myself sometime, but I think I'd slow you guys down too much.

(This discussion could get a bit off topic, so if people want to carry on with this side-track, I'll split it off to elsewhere).