Buying online / Cost of gear in Australia

[stepbystep]

Hello,
I've bought quite a bit of TV industry gear(Broadcast VTR's @ 2k & 5k) online, ebay and stores with no dramas.
Have also bought a tent recently - Mountain Hardwear Light Wedge 2, brand new delivered for $215 (10 days), from the US.
It's hard to shop local when you compare the prices, even 2nd hand I couldn't find cheaper.
I find it's small things like DVD's etc that have caused me the most grief buying online, for a variety of reasons but usually damage.
I intend to buy all(most) small gear locally, but geez nothing is cheap with this hobby.
sbs

[corvus]

G'day All,
This online shop is a good reason to do your homework ,just one example Silva Helios Lighter can be purchased in Australia for around $40.00 they are asking $195.00 ??
How is this for stupidity check out their prices
http://www.p2s.com.au/se/camping_equipment.html
Regards
corvus

In fairness I should point out that price list is out of date however Caveat Emptor never the less.
corvus

[tasadam]

I got my titanium cup for under $40, not over $80.
Great find Corvus, a good "example".

[Franco]

'Makes one wonder, though... Same item, made in same place, costing so much more here."
For many years I was a buyer for one of the largest photographic shops in Melbourne.
In spite of my "position" and buying power I could buy pretty much every item that was not an "end of the line special" cheaper retail on the Net than wholesale here. That included items that I could purchase at the wholesaler's staff price.
For your info, at the point of sale the mark up on a DSLR here is between 3 and 10%. Lenses are just a little higher than that.

Recently I purchased several bits on the Net simply because they do not require any service/backup and were much cheaper even including postage.
One example is a Mora knife. I asked the Australian agents for a retail outlet , they gave me the name of a local shop.
That turned out to be a gun shop with the dirtiest, messiest display I have seen here for many years. The small selection of Mora they had was not what I was looking for and were about twice the cost they are in the US and the UK.
Later I purchased a sharpening kit. Under $60 delivered. Local price $96.50-125.
Franco

[Ent]

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[daveintas]

Curious is the price ratio of "home brands" to Thermarest appears constant? Ie about half the cost in the USA and about half the cost in Australia. Now we find some USA online shops will not sell Thermarest products direct to Australia. This does suggest price gouging by someone and as such is the reason why I have not looked to closely at the new Thermarest mat.

For this same reason I will not consider buying an MSR tent (or anything else MSR) - their rules not allowing US retailers to export to Oz (although some still do anyway) shows that they are rorting the Australian market - selling at the greatest profit they can make NOT a reasonable price for the quality of the tents.

Dave.

[Ent]

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[benb]

Hey Tasadam,

I did pretty much the same thing you did when shopping for my gitzo tripod. I ended up going through those guys in New York. I bought when the exchange rate was good and must have saved close to $280 AU.
Actually interesting that you bought the successor to my tripod, you must be tall like me (193cm) to have wanted that tripod. These tripods are fantastic, the little hook on the underside is so useful.
I will eventually buy a new head to replace the one I have a the moment.
Cheers,

Ben

[tasadam]

I'm 178 cm, but I wanted the height because I'm often standing in a creek or on a rock taking the photo.
And a macro of something in a tree, the height is useful.
The tripod is really easy to retract a bit so as to get the right height for me on flat ground. Takes no extra time.
When the tripod's fully extended and you raise the centre column, it is very high indeed.
I don't really need the centre column and must find out how to use the ground level set thingy...

On the subject of buying online, if you go looking for a memory card, say something like one of these, many of the suppliers that will sell it to you want to charge you between $40 and $45, for an airbag from Sydney or wherever containing only one Compact Flash memory card, they claim it's their set fee. So shop carefully and double check the freight charges before paying!

[Niels]

Just a quick question

I was told recently by an unnamed sales person that If I purchased anything with down in it I would be lugged with a 'fee' from customs.

As I am considering the purchase of a jacket and sleeping bag from the States is there any truth in this?

From what I read a number of other people on this forum have bought sleeping bags online but no mention of this 'fee'?

Cheers

N.

[tasadam]

First I've heard of that...
My best advice to you is to check the Customs website, or phone and ask Customs.
Better to find out now than to get a nasty surprise.
Could be a sales ploy (dirty tactic), but there also could be some truth to it, being an animal product.

[sthughes]

I recently bought a sleeping bag (full of down) from the US. I wasn't charged a fee by customs. Might have just been lucky of course.

[Ent]

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[flatfoot]

I've was flicking through acrhives of 'The Bushwalker' magazine last night and read this piece of editorial from the Winter 2008 edition:

First I looked at what I could buy from a top US sleeping bag manufacturer, and I found three bags at AU$495, AU$640 and AU$735. They looked more than suitable. Then I checked with a large Kent St shop to see if they sold them here. Yes, and they were priced at AU$1,000, AU$1,370 and AU$1,450. I boggled. This represents a markup of about 1.97, 2.14 and 2.02 over the US RETAIL price. It would be even more over the US wholesale price. Now I know there are freight cost and so on, but this sort of markup is utterly ridiculous! I can import one of these bags for about $25 in postage. Whether I have to pay GST is a moot point, depending on fine details, but at the worst that is only 10%.

I am sure the local gear shops have to make a living, but will any experienced bushwalker stand for this sort of gouging? I very much doubt it. Increasing numbers of walkers are going straight to the web these days, and it is no wonder. Does that mean the shops will end up selling only street clothing to the hordes and cheap gear to novices? Very possibly.

Can we get this message across to the local shops? I am not hopeful. It seems to me that parts of the retail market are going to undergo a serious change as experienced shoppers bypass the shops for the web. Where do you shop for gear these days?

What do you think of this? What has been your experience? Are you buying more and more items online from the US?

I braved a local store today. I bought two shirts and a fleece jacket today from Kathmandu because there were some significant mark-downs (60%). Instead of paying $469.94, I paid $187.97. I would never pay the non-sale price. These stores must still be making a profit on these items which means people are just being ripped off at other times. Granted - this sale has been going for 1 month and they probably have sales of similar duration at other times of the year.

The same store was also selling emergency blankets for $15.99 (when these can be purchased for $2.99 elsewhere). This is gear for bushwalking - not a trip to the moon!

[Tony]

Hi Flatfoot,

This is one of my interests, I purchase very little from the local shops as a lot of the UL gear that I want is not available and if it is it is more that twice the price, eg: Golite Jam2 pack in Australia, A$280, I purchased mine for A$102 delivered to a US address. I am interested in purchasing a Western Mountaineering Summerlite sleeping bag, a local shop wants $700, I can purchase one for US$315 and recently the where %20 off that price.

One of the problems I have had, is that some manufacturers have deals with their Australian distributor that the US shops are not to sell to Australia, I fortunately can get around this but it does cause problems.

I know of more and more walkers purchasing from gear from overseas, mainly from the US, but the local outdoor gear shops seem to be doing better than ever which I am unable to work out.

As far as Kathmandu goes, last time I was in one of their stores I mentioned that I wanted some gear to do the Overland Track in Tasmania and not one sales person had ever heard of it, not even the manager.

Tony

[Franco]

There are many reasons for this, mostly economy of scale.
Rents and staff wages are also higher here than in the US.
Would you work for $10 per hour ? 2 weeks paid holidays ? ....
Just to mention 1 item , I purchased last year a mat from REI, at their standard retail price, for less than staff price here in Australia.
Again people don't want to hear this but when I was purchasing over $2 million per annum from a particular electronic manufacturer here, I could have bought any of those cameras cheaper from a US shop than at my wholesale...
Same for all the other camera brands I used to buy.

Just one figure from the US.
Last year the REI dividends (the 10% on average that it refunds to members on items bought at full price) was over 80 million US.
Keep in mind that a lot of its sales are at a discount price, that has lower or no return at all.

BTW I don't like it either but just as every party can do the job better when their are in opposition, most seem to be able to run a retail shop better when they don't. As soon as they open a shop that particular ability is lost forever.

Franco

[etrangere]

Just recently have ordered a couple of things from overseas. I only do it on more expensive items where included postage still gives me a considerable savings. Also I tend to do a LOT of research on the product first and if possible look at them first hand in a local shop.

All prices in AU $ and where bought online includes postage

Katadyn Pocket filter
$600 bought locally
$250 from Moontrails.com

MSR Dromedary bags 10 liter x 2
$195 bought locally
$101 from Moontrails.com
(was informed that MSR products warranty was void if i was ordering from Australia. I have quite a few MSR products and considered the savings made were worth thet risk)

Optimus Svea 123R stove
$130 from Moontrails.com
(no savings benefit here as was not able to find any retailer for it here in Aus or even one who would have ordered it in, had they ordered it Im sure the cost would have been MUCH more anyways)

[sthughes]

If wholesale in Aus is more than retail in the US, why don't local stores just buy from US retailers instead.

Last week: Asolo Flame in Tassie = $369, from US (including delivery and in AUD) = $211 - same boots.

Firestone Coil-rite air bag suspension thingys >$350 here, $<100 in the USA.

I won't buy footwear, a pack or small stuff like sporks etc. online, but otherwise I'm almost always going online these days.

[etrangere]

Thats all well and good for the individual who is ordering under $1000, but once you spend over $1000 you start paying import tax and any savings you might have been trying to make are lost.

Another point everyone here should consider is that most on the forum are reasonably knowlegable on bushwalking/camping gear and can make considered choices when shopping online. But for novice/beginners would benefit from shopping at local knowlegable retailers. The advice and correct gear purchases would be well worth the additional costs. There is nothing worse than buying something and finding it doesnt suit your needs and then having to spend a second time on something that does suit your needs. I try to follow the "pay once, cry once" rule.

[ninjapuppet]

$195 bought locally
$101 from Moontrails.com
(was informed that MSR products warranty was void if i was ordering from Australia. I have quite a few MSR products and considered the savings made were worth thet risk)

They let you order?
I tried to order a kettle and a thermarest from them and got knocked back by moontrail! they said they simply dont send anything from cascade designs to australia

[Tony]

Hi Franco,

Rents and staff wages are also higher here than in the US.
Would you work for $10 per hour ? 2 weeks paid holidays ? ....

It still does not justify the exorbitant markups by the Australian importer and the %100+ markup by the retailer.

And besides if the local shops want our business they will have to compete and I would like to see the retailers be able to cut the middle man out and import directly.

Tony

[etrangere]

I placed the order, then a day or two later recieved an email from their sales dept explain that the warranty would be void if i ordered it and did I still wish to go ahead with the order. I emailed back saying that wasnt a problem, and have since recieved the MSR Dromarary Bags with no further issues.

[etrangere]

$195 bought locally
$101 from Moontrails.com
(was informed that MSR products warranty was void if i was ordering from Australia. I have quite a few MSR products and considered the savings made were worth thet risk)

They let you order?
I tried to order a kettle and a thermarest from them and got knocked back by moontrail! they said they simply dont send anything from cascade designs to australia

As luck would have it i still have the email.

From: Moontrail / Backcountry Equipment [mailto:saleshelp@moontrail.com]
Sent: Saturday, 3 April 2010 12:22 AM
Subject: RE: Moontrail: Order #109907

Hello Mark,

Thank you for placing your order with Moontrail.

We noticed that you selected (2) MSR Dromedary 10L.
Unfortunately, there is no warranty available for these MSR products outside of the United States. If you wish to continue with this order, there would be no warranty coverage available

Do you wish to proceed with the purchase of these items?

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Thanks,
Stephen

[Drifting]

I recently bought a sleeping bag, and if I'd bought it here, it would have cost me THREE TIMES what I paid for it overseas.

It's like this with a lot of stuff here. Canoes are unbelievably marked up. Camera stuff is just ridiculously overpriced. Then retail store whinge about loosing business to the Net, but how is it that I can buy something from a COMMERCIAL store in the US, and have it sent here, and it's still three times cheaper than something bought here.

For that matter, why is it that the stuff made here is twice as dear as the stuff sold in the US? Example- Mont gear. Good stuff, but should it cost more than Western Mountaineering stuff?

[Franco]

Frankly my point is that talk is cheap. If it were so easy to undercut the existing retailers I would have done that myself.
As a matter of fact a mate of mine after having run one of the largest shops here for over 10 years left to start his own business. Guess what ? A laundromat..in fact 3.
Do you think that he did that because he loves the idea of having his own laundromat ?. No simply,(I asked..), he was not mad enough to risk his money in an industry that he knows all too well.
I can assure you that the same "we are getting ripped off" is repeated by buyers of most goods. Cameras, computers, cars, bikes, CD's, clothing...
so there are obviously only greedy and stupid people running retail shops here. Can't wait for some clever chaps to move in.
Franco

[Taurë-rana]

Import tax, GST, freight costs, labour costs... but it is still very hard to understand why things are so much more than they can be bought overseas. One of my biggest gripes is lack of range here - I'm happy to spend a bit more to buy local, but so often can't get what I want. That is as much a Tasmanian complaint as an Australian one though, I bought my down jacket on eBay, from someone who bought it in the US, and I paid 30-50% less than I would have in a shop, if I'd been able to find it, and I bought my pack and sleeping bag from Melbourne. The ironic thing is that they had to get the sleeping bag in from the US, but I did get it for a reasonable price after I hit the roof about the price and pointed out how much cheaper I could get it from the US.

[Ent]

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[Penguin]

Frankly my point is that talk is cheap. If it were so easy to undercut the existing retailers I would have done that myself.
As a matter of fact a mate of mine after having run one of the largest shops here for over 10 years left to start his own business. Guess what ? A laundromat..in fact 3.
Do you think that he did that because he loves the idea of having his own laundromat ?. No simply,(I asked..), he was not mad enough to risk his money in an industry that he knows all too well.
I can assure you that the same "we are getting ripped off" is repeated by buyers of most goods. Cameras, computers, cars, bikes, CD's, clothing...
so there are obviously only greedy and stupid people running retail shops here. Can't wait for some clever chaps to move in.
Franco

Franco

It is very easy - we need a dual level society where WE can keep our salaries, conditions, pensions etc and have an under class who will work longer hours for less money - known as the OTHERS. The OTHERS are critical to the WE class maintaining their standard of living.

In retail and service industries I can get cheaper products/consultancies elsewhere. Few industries are safe. Health services and operations are markedly cheaper in South East Asia. Legal and accounting services are being out sourced to India. Testing goods against standards is starting to be outsourced to other countries. I am sure that there are many other examples of services that are or could be sent overseas.

Goods are cheaper over the internet. There are multiple reasons why local prices are higher. Is it high wholesale prices, high costs of opening a retail business, the costs of red tape? Or is it lack of competition(?), inefficiencies or stupid retail owners? I do not think it is simply uncontrolled greed or cartels. As Franco pointed out, many smart people have tried retail and failed.

We need to have the OTHERS to do all the donkey work for low reward and then WE can by cheaper. As Toni says, overseas manufactures should not be able to sign exclusive deals with local wholesalers so then retailers would be able to directly import. But then the wholesalers would go out of business.

I buy locally and on the internet. I just hope that we get a balance so that those little bits of money keep moving around the Australian economy so we all get some standard of living. Is there is an economist out there who can put these arguments in a more logical and better language it would be great.

Also we need get the balance right of local and overseas purchasing so we keep getting service with our goods in this country.

BTW my son is living in London at the moment - he can buy hiking boots much cheaper than us but his rent, food costs, transport costs are much higher than ours. What would you prefer? Can we cheer pick where somethings are cheaper overseas and ignore the other parts of their economy?

I fear there is no simple one line answer to this question of where we purchase. I am sure the market will sort out solution. I hope there is not too much damage in the process....

Penguin

[Taurë-rana]

It is very easy - we need a dual level society where WE can keep our salaries, conditions, pensions etc and have an under class who will work longer hours for less money - known as the OTHERS. The OTHERS are critical to the WE class maintaining their standard of living.

Good thinking, what a great idea. Although isn't this an old idea - I think various terms have been used, serfs, slaves, servants etc. Society has obviously regressed

Is there is an economist out there who can put these arguments in a more logical and better language it would be great.

[flatfoot]

It's a pity there aren't more people offering the products cheaper on eBay. For the brand products some ebayers may be flouting the "rules" set by the manufacturers. I find it a convenient way to find and buy things.

Often the other gear websites are confusing and their policies aren't obvious - you get part-way through checkout and then find out that half your shopping cart can't be purchased internationally.