Snow season

[Camminata]

I drove my car today 300 meters to Woolworths , I usually walk but I thought I would contribute more to heating the planet. Did the last Victorian premier say something about south Aussies "Why would you want to go there?" oh and I stocked up on wet wipes since they were on sale

I'm new to this forum, and it seems infected with Boomers? Could just be SUV Snow People?

https://globalclimateforum.org/. This forum would be better to express your views, no need to force your opinion.

Last edited by Camminata on Sun 08 Sep, 2024 6:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Bill P]

See later post

Last edited by Bill P on Sun 08 Sep, 2024 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Bill P]

Did a full Feathertop razorback traverse last week. Included a visit to MUMC dome. Negligible snow. No tree issues on Bon Accord spur or North Razor track. Fed Hut tank was full and left firewood + kindling.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

I am with Camminata when it comes to people standing on their soap boxes and lecturing people about how to live their lives.
I just don't happen to have a lazy AUD$35,000 just blocking the view to the Telly to buy an EV or AUD$14,000 to take a container ship to Turkiye.
I am not a baby boomer. I am not living on more than AUD$25,000 per year.I enjoy the outdoors and do support conservation lobby groups such as the VNPA. I also help people seeking asylum , many of whom have fled their countries because of global over population and environmental degradation.
The Red tie party have basically the same kiss the logging , mining and Fossil fuel lobbies' rings type policies as the Blue Tie party. ' Remember the push to stop using CFCs in spray cans? . That was quite effective. Is the human race doing enough to arrest fossil fuel pollution in order to halt global warming?
NO , IMHO I think not. Are we past the tipping point ? IMHO Yes.
Is admonishing somebody you know nothing about on the www going to solve anything ? IMHO : NO.
Now we are here to discuss bushwalking and if someone wants to debate my own personal decisions about how I live my life then send me a PM .
Then I will tell you what I really think of such sentiments.

However if the O.P. who is busy saving the world single handedly (sic) can spare the time then
come and volunteer to do some track clearing . If he/ she can help then jolly good
I say .
We use two stroke engine power tools.That might upset him/ her a bit but
we need to get the bushwalking tracks cleared properly in a limited time frame.
The Parks Victoria staff drive combustion engine driven vehicles and come and usually put on a BBQ for the volunteers.
There are usually meat free options for victuals too.

Details of how become involved in track clearing with Bushwalking Victoria
in conjuction with Parks Victoria can be found at this weblink:
https://bushwalkingvictoria.org.au/btac/

We usually stay in tents that have been imported from East Asian Manufacturing centres
rather than hope we can find a low emmissions cave to huddle inside
;-P

[Avatar]

Did a full Feathertop razorback traverse last week. Included a visit to MUMC dome. Negligible snow. No tree issues on Bon Accord spur or North Razor track. Fed Hut tank was full and left firewood + kindling.

Thanks for the report Bill. The cam from Hotham seems to show a bit of snow up there. Is Hotham still charging entry to Razorback?

[paidal_chalne_vala]

Hotham has closed up all winter ski resort operations for 2024. You won't have to pay to park there.Only Falls Creek in VIC. remains open , clinging to an ice cube here and there.All other VIC. ski resorts are now closed AFAIK.
Perisher in NSW is still open but it is melting fast .
The winter gate on the Northern Razorback approach at Stoney Tops tracks would still be locked until cup day weekend AFAIK .

[Avatar]

Hotham has closed up all winter ski resort operations for 2024. You won't have to pay to park there.Only Falls Creek in VIC. remains open , clinging to an ice cube here and there.All other VIC. ski resorts are now closed AFAIK.
Perisher in NSW is still open but it is melting fast .
The winter gate on the Northern Razorback approach at Stoney Tops tracks would still be locked until cup day weekend AFAIK .

Thanks for that report PCV. Might go up midweek then for a one nighter. Microspikes needed to summit?

[Camminata]

Hotham has closed up all winter ski resort operations for 2024. You won't have to pay to park there.Only Falls Creek in VIC. remains open , clinging to an ice cube here and there.All other VIC. ski resorts are now closed AFAIK.
Perisher in NSW is still open but it is melting fast .
The winter gate on the Northern Razorback approach at Stoney Tops tracks would still be locked until cup day weekend AFAIK .

Thanks for that report PCV. Might go up midweek then for a one nighter. Microspikes needed to summit?

@Avatar Extremely unlikely you would need microspikes , would be dirt all the way up the spine, east face still has some white stuff.

Last edited by Camminata on Sun 08 Sep, 2024 8:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.

[Avatar]

@Avatar Extremely unlikely you would need microspikes , would be dirt all the way up the spine, east face still has some white stuff.

Thanks Camminata.
Light rain and snow forecast Wednesday.

[Xplora]

Falls Creek are closing Friday according to the latest but BHP road is still a long way off opening. Under the road is still very wet in sections.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

Falls Creek is ending its winter operations on Sept. 14th 2024. Another poor ski season bites the dust .
Access to the BHP can be made via a number of different hike in points including hiking in from Howman's gap and the resort itself.
Since the skiing is kaput and it is not hot yet I think the Grampians would be perfect in early spring for a walk.

[swhite]

I am with Camminata when it comes to people standing on their soap boxes and lecturing people about how to live their lives.
I just don't happen to have a lazy AUD$35,000 just blocking the view to the Telly to buy an EV or AUD$14,000 to take a container ship to Turkiye.
I am not a baby boomer. I am not living on more than AUD$25,000 per year.I enjoy the outdoors and do support conservation lobby groups such as the VNPA. I also help people seeking asylum , many of whom have fled their countries because of global over population and environmental degradation.
The Red tie party have basically the same kiss the logging , mining and Fossil fuel lobbies' rings type policies as the Blue Tie party. ' Remember the push to stop using CFCs in spray cans? . That was quite effective. Is the human race doing enough to arrest fossil fuel pollution in order to halt global warming?
NO , IMHO I think not. Are we past the tipping point ? IMHO Yes.
Is admonishing somebody you know nothing about on the www going to solve anything ? IMHO : NO.
Now we are here to discuss bushwalking and if someone wants to debate my own personal decisions about how I live my life then send me a PM .
Then I will tell you what I really think of such sentiments.

However if the O.P. who is busy saving the world single handedly (sic) can spare the time then
come and volunteer to do some track clearing . If he/ she can help then jolly good
I say .
We use two stroke engine power tools.That might upset him/ her a bit but
we need to get the bushwalking tracks cleared properly in a limited time frame.
The Parks Victoria staff drive combustion engine driven vehicles and come and usually put on a BBQ for the volunteers.
There are usually meat free options for victuals too.

Details of how become involved in track clearing with Bushwalking Victoria
in conjuction with Parks Victoria can be found at this weblink:
https://bushwalkingvictoria.org.au/btac/

We usually stay in tents that have been imported from East Asian Manufacturing centres
rather than hope we can find a low emmissions cave to huddle inside
;-P

Physics clearly shows it's everyone's responsibility to not fly, and to criticise others for doing so, or planning to do so.
Yes, inequality is ruining people's lives and efforts should be taken to minimise it.
No, we're not past some of sort of emissions tipping point; we can still choose to limit emissions and keep warming to 2˚C. Even 2.5 would be better than 3+, assuming natural tipping points like rapid WAIS collapse are avoided. Tipping points for coral reefs and emperor penguins have been passed though. They're now condemned to death.
And I remove woody weeds from 25 acres of bushland, manually, by hand, without herbicides, so have done, and keep doing my share thanks.

Clearing tracks and helping other humans isn't some sort of free-pass to pollute.

[Baeng72]

Well, this thread seems to be still going well!
Ah social media!
My $0.02: If we all did the right thing* and didn't fly, didn't use ICEs, we wouldn't make a lot of difference**.
The system is the problem. We have a system predicated on endless growth and consumption***.
This is unsustainable because it's a finite planet, where we're already exceeding planetary boundaries.
Which is not to say don't do those things.

To save the Emperor Penguins and Reef is easy conceptually. Just not gonna happen because the system and everybody is happy to *&%$#! in the commons, but no one is gonna pay to fix it, because it's economically disadvantageous for a country to spend heaps of money so that all countries benefit. You can see how the US, Aus are some of the largest gas producers, but don't want to give that up, nor pay reparations.
You just need to cut fossil fuel usage to stop exacerbating the problem, turn a basalt island(s) in the ocean into fine silt with existing rock mills, and the ocean will turn that silt into clay and in the process draw down CO2 from atmosphere and reduce global temperatures. Silt because the surface area is greatly increased compared to a rock. Job done. Now, who's got a couple of billion so I can buy the plant and set it up somewhere?

* define the right thing. Is it net-zero (which isn't going to fix the stuff already in the pipeline, but that's all politicians care about not even considering drawing down CO2)? Is it aspirational or concrete? Does it include soil degradation, deforestation, species loss that are separate but related to climate change?
** it would make a measurable difference but not fix the issue, just slow it a bit. But it's like the don't litter campaigns or stop smoking. It's shifted the blame from the corporations and those who profit, to the consumers.
***Imagine a politician trying to get popularly elected saying 'look, no more "jobs and growth", we're to give up growth'. The opposition would just say 'they're taking away your freedoms, the commie *&%$#!!' and greed would win.

[swhite]

Well, this thread seems to be still going well!
Ah social media!
My $0.02: If we all did the right thing* and didn't fly, didn't use ICEs, we wouldn't make a lot of difference**.
The system is the problem. We have a system predicated on endless growth and consumption***.
This is unsustainable because it's a finite planet, where we're already exceeding planetary boundaries.
Which is not to say don't do those things.

To save the Emperor Penguins and Reef is easy conceptually. Just not gonna happen because the system and everybody is happy to *&%$#! in the commons, but no one is gonna pay to fix it, because it's economically disadvantageous for a country to spend heaps of money so that all countries benefit. You can see how the US, Aus are some of the largest gas producers, but don't want to give that up, nor pay reparations.
You just need to cut fossil fuel usage to stop exacerbating the problem, turn a basalt island(s) in the ocean into fine silt with existing rock mills, and the ocean will turn that silt into clay and in the process draw down CO2 from atmosphere and reduce global temperatures. Silt because the surface area is greatly increased compared to a rock. Job done. Now, who's got a couple of billion so I can buy the plant and set it up somewhere?

* define the right thing. Is it net-zero (which isn't going to fix the stuff already in the pipeline, but that's all politicians care about not even considering drawing down CO2)? Is it aspirational or concrete? Does it include soil degradation, deforestation, species loss that are separate but related to climate change?
** it would make a measurable difference but not fix the issue, just slow it a bit. But it's like the don't litter campaigns or stop smoking. It's shifted the blame from the corporations and those who profit, to the consumers.
***Imagine a politician trying to get popularly elected saying 'look, no more "jobs and growth", we're to give up growth'. The opposition would just say 'they're taking away your freedoms, the commie *&%$#!!' and greed would win.

I think it's constructive to be discussing this outside an echo-chamber.

Reefs and emperor penguins can't be saved now -
The tipping point for reefs is +1.2C excluding pollution, possibly (precautionary) less: https://www.worldenergydata.org/assessm ... hresholds/
(and more at https://www.worldenergydata.org/?s=coral)
Emperor penguins: https://www.worldenergydata.org/virtual ... udy-finds/

The largest fossil fuel producers are shown below (click for hi-res). Australia is one of the world's largest gas exporters, but a *relatively* small producer. That said, all must rapidly decline.

"Just need to..."? Emission pathways from the UNEP's latest report (https://www.unep.org/interactives/emiss ... port/2023/) are shown below. To limit warming to 2˚C, not only do emissions need to plummet from a growing 55 atm down to 7 in 2070, but an additional 7 billion tonnes of yet-to-be-invented carbon dioxide removal (CDR) is required (orange circle). Yet last year, emissions hit a new record, production of every fossil fuel hit a new record, and fossil fuelled electricity generation hit a new record (https://www.worldenergydata.org/summary/). So clearly there is no "Just need to...". Radical drastic change is required, immediately. So, no flying then...

Attachments

[paidal_chalne_vala]

What is your question about bushwalking?
Some of us like bushwalking and have some outdoor experience which could be useful for others.
This is a bushwalking web site .
There is an international walking thread on this forum where to be fair everyone on there should be equally admonished
for daring to go somewhere without permission from the new kid on the block :
the Central scrutinizer cum eco warrior.
I have friends and family abroad. I am supposed to never see any of them ever again? WTAF?
Moderators:
The ski dot com dot au web site has an ignore setting which allows forum users to block out
' contributors' who are not to their liking. It is a useful feature that could be incorporated into this website.

[johnw]

an ignore setting which allows forum users to block out
' contributors' who are not to their liking. It is a useful feature that could be incorporated into this website.

Having read this discussion I hear your pain.
There appears to be an existing solution (full disclosure, I haven't tried it - yet).
1. Click the users name.
2. Click "Add Foe" and follow the prompts.

[Camminata]

Well, this thread seems to be still going well!
Ah social media!
My $0.02: If we all did the right thing* and didn't fly, didn't use ICEs, we wouldn't make a lot of difference**.
The system is the problem. We have a system predicated on endless growth and consumption***.
This is unsustainable because it's a finite planet, where we're already exceeding planetary boundaries.
Which is not to say don't do those things.

To save the Emperor Penguins and Reef is easy conceptually. Just not gonna happen because the system and everybody is happy to *&%$#! in the commons, but no one is gonna pay to fix it, because it's economically disadvantageous for a country to spend heaps of money so that all countries benefit. You can see how the US, Aus are some of the largest gas producers, but don't want to give that up, nor pay reparations.
You just need to cut fossil fuel usage to stop exacerbating the problem, turn a basalt island(s) in the ocean into fine silt with existing rock mills, and the ocean will turn that silt into clay and in the process draw down CO2 from atmosphere and reduce global temperatures. Silt because the surface area is greatly increased compared to a rock. Job done. Now, who's got a couple of billion so I can buy the plant and set it up somewhere?

* define the right thing. Is it net-zero (which isn't going to fix the stuff already in the pipeline, but that's all politicians care about not even considering drawing down CO2)? Is it

aspirational or concrete? Does it include soil degradation, deforestation, species loss that are separate but related to climate change?
** it would make a measurable difference but not fix the issue, just slow it a bit. But it's like the don't litter campaigns or stop smoking. It's shifted the blame from the corporations and those who profit, to the consumers.
***Imagine a politician trying to get popularly elected saying 'look, no more "jobs and growth", we're to give up growth'. The opposition would just say 'they're taking away your freedoms, the commie *&%$#!!' and greed would win.

I think it's constructive to be discussing this outside an echo-chamber

Reefs and emperor penguins can't be saved now -
The tipping point for reefs is +1.2C excluding pollution, possibly (precautionary) less: https://www.worldenergydata.org/assessm ... hresholds/
(and more at https://www.worldenergydata.org/?s=coral)
Emperor penguins: https://www.worldenergydata.org/virtual ... udy-finds/

The largest fossil fuel producers are shown below (click for hi-res). Australia is one of the world's largest gas exporters, but a *relatively* small producer. That said, all must rapidly decline.




"Just need to..."? Emission pathways from the UNEP's latest report (https://www.unep.org/interactives/emiss ... port/2023/) are shown below. To limit warming to 2˚C, not only do emissions need to plummet from a growing 55 atm down to 7 in 2070, but an additional 7 billion tonnes of yet-to-be-invented carbon dioxide removal (CDR) is required (orange circle). Yet last year, emissions hit a new record, production of every fossil fuel hit a new record, and fossil fuelled electricity generation hit a new record (https://www.worldenergydata.org/summary/). So clearly there is no "Just need to...". Radical drastic change is required, immediately. So, no flying then...

I will continue to fly as much as possible for leisure , seriously take your forceful opinions elsewhere, and scroll up as I suggested a different forum for you to take your anger out and
criticise others, RSole... I get crazed conspiracy theorist vibes from Swhite, as PCV indicated, some bushwalking questions info??? a click "LIKE' icon would be nice to acknowledge his & others useful informative comments. SWHITE I give "The Birdy". IMO

Last edited by Camminata on Tue 10 Sep, 2024 6:37 am, edited 4 times in total.

[wildwalks]

Physics clearly shows it's everyone's responsibility to not fly, and to criticise others for doing so, or planning to do so.

Physics and other sciences show evidence of human impact on climate change.
It is a personal decision to pass judgment, be rude, unfriendly and criticise people for flying or other related activities.
I understand and appreciate passion around climate change, but this forum is not the place for attacking people for their decisions.

Forum rule number 1
Keep all content friendly, polite and clean. 'Flaming', hostility, insults, obscenity, abuse and personal attacks are not permitted.
As the administrator of this forum, I will remove posts and suspend or ban people, with no further warning, if this continues.
(If anyone wishes to argue with me on this, I refer you to Newton's third law, 'for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction'.)

This thread is to discuss changes in the snow season. Now, lets all take a deep breath and get back on topic.
I know we can do this, please.....
Thanks

Matt

[Baeng72]

I was in the middle of writing a giant answer, but I feel it would be pointless. [I thought I'd posted it, but maybe our beloved mod deleted it.]
Yes, we do just need to stop fossil fuel consumption. Without that, we know what will happen. But we most likely won't. Because nobody will forgo the short term benefits, least not politicians, corporations and billionaires.

I'll just leave this: we have CDR, I mentioned it above, just accelerate geological weathering of basalt by crushing it and dumping it in the ocean. But nobody gonna pay for it/destroy some mid-ocean islands or coastal basalt regions.
https://climate.mit.edu/explainers/enha ... weathering

Please feel free to castigate me for my moral turpitude.

[Baeng72]

So, how about that snow? Is there any left on the hills?
I had great plans to get out and about, but, c'est la vie.
I'm looking forward to Circuit road opening up, and charging (in slow motion) up one of Queen/Howitt/Helicopter Spurs from Upper Howqua.
Oh wait, snow!

[wildwalks]

So, how about that snow?

A good topic -- thanks

[Camminata]

So, how about that snow? Is there any left on the hills?
I had great plans to get out and about, but, c'est la vie.
I'm looking forward to Circuit road opening up, and charging (in slow motion) up one of Queen/Howitt/Helicopter Spurs from Upper Howqua.
Oh wait, snow!

I did get positive vibes for a good snow season when I was camped on Mt Speculation opening weekend , I could see and hear the fireworks been let off at Buller, I did have plans to ride my fat bike up the fainters as far as possible in the snow, before stomping up to camp somewhere up top, maybe next year. I reckon I timed my window of opportunity well with the snowmageddon event at St Gwinear and up at Bogong the following weekend in late July/early August, I don't get to the Grampians or hardly ever so I wouldn't mind going back this Spring.

Looking forward to more videos from you.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

I skied 14 days in the 2024 Australian winter. 2 days on lifts and the rest by soley human powered ski activities.
Yes I skied 11 days in Japan earlier in the year (2 days XC ) and 5 days in N.Z.( one day XC) after the local 2024 ski season here in Vic. and
NSW died a sudden death.
The Grampians are calling me later this month for some bushwalking.
I thank the helpful contributor who has guided me to the ' friend / foe ' function on on this forum.
It has worked and that annoying sanctimonious & most unamusing eco warrior has seemingly vanished from my screen , like magic.
Praise de Lawd for that !.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

While the ARV have announced that all winter operations at ALL the VIC. ski resorts will conclude this Friday the usual locked gates in the Nat. parks will not re open until early November.
That does mean you can walk some places without having to share those routes with large 4 x 4 vehicles.
Access to Mt. Stirling for instance can be achieved via Carter's road and parking at the locked gate at Road No. 3. You will have the Mt. No.3 hut to yourself I would hazard to guess.You can still drive to TBJ and park there.
Walking over the summit and down past Craig's hut is one way to access the Circuit road.
King Billy saddle will be car free until the end of October too.

[Baeng72]

I could always return to Spec. road from Lake Cobbler.....
Nah, I will await the opening before cup weekend.

I still wouldn't mind a stroll up the Big Fella or the Fainters, might be a bit of snow left somewhere there.

[Lophophaps]

The south slopes on Bogong's summit should have some snow. There may be snow on the east side where drifts and cornices lived in winter. Parts of the Main Range at KNP should have snow. With a shorter season and increased snow-making costs, downhill skiing will become increasingly expensive. Eventually ski resorts will be less viable.

[paidal_chalne_vala]

Mostly IMHO Australian ski resorts are a rip off
and it will only become worse. In fact
once you have skied abroad
it becomes
clearer
that they are mostly over priced Shyte holes.
Skiing on lifts is best done Overseas, IMHO.

[Avatar]

Last edited by Avatar on Thu 12 Sep, 2024 2:13 am, edited 1 time in total.

[Avatar]

Mt Buller snowfall records 1979-2024. Worth drilling down. The trend is slightly down. If you start from 1990, the trend is upwards.
https://www.mtbuller.com.au/winter/snow-weather/historical-snow-depths
1982 had around 75 days of snow and around 63 days of natural snow in 2024.
1982 had "lower cumulative snowfall" than 2024.
1982 and 1983 were 2 consecutive low snowfall years, similar to 2024 and 2023 respectively.
No snowmaking back in the early 1980s blurs comparisons, but efforts have been made in the plots to show the snowmaking separately.
Mt Buller claims to have a "world-class snowmaking system which greatly augments the natural depth beyond amounts shown in the graph".
It looks like cumulative snowfall does not include snowmaking.

Mt Buller Snowfall 1979-2024

Mt Buller Snowfall 1982

Mt Buller Snowfall 2024

Mt Buller Snowfall 1983

Mt Buller Snowfall 2023

I was doing a lot of XC skiing and snowcamps on nearby Mt Stirling in 1989-1992 and 2016-2019. Both groups of around 4 consecutive high snowfall years.

[Xplora]

Mostly IMHO Australian ski resorts are a rip off
and it will only become worse. In fact
once you have skied abroad
it becomes
clearer
that they are mostly over priced Shyte holes.
Skiing on lifts is best done Overseas, IMHO.

Never having skied at a resort I would not be able to comment about the cost. Not sure I could afford a trip to Japan and a NZ to ski in the same year but good luck to you. Maybe you could share your secret. Even if it were cheaper in Aus I would not ski at a resort. Not when we have so much country outside of them. Not sure why we are even discussing resort skiing in this forum. Maybe it is because people's mindset with the snow season is fixed on resorts. Still plenty of BC turns to be had in KNP and the southern faces of Bogong. It has been a poor year and clearly the trend will continue that way so enjoy the good years when they come.