Tracks, Huts, etc Omitted from Tasmanian Maps [merged]

[Nuts]

It does all smell a bit, issues of profiteering, foi etc

[flyfisher]

I can recommend the Memory map topo set at $299 compared to the Govt. dept. price of over $1000.

They have all toe 25k, all the 100k, all the 250k all Tassie towns street directories.satellite images and 3d and some of mainland Aus.

Last time I was in Tas map shop in Hobart they were $250.

Very noice to have them all on the computer and can be useful to some extent with gps.

ff

[Paul]

The website for Tasmap ( http://www.tasmap.tas.gov.au ) has a new feature - TASMAPS User Forum.

Perhaps those wishing to discuss this topic should directed some questions thier way !

Cheers,

Paul

[Liamy77]

thats what i just bought... hoping to get a small laptop or somethin to load em up on and carry my cheapo garmin GPS and its usb cable...

[Paul]

G'day All,

If the "authority's" ( after all, they are just the caretakers of public land, just as we are all caretakers of our own house blocks ) see fit to delete tracks from the next issues of maps, isnt it time we all begin to openly share the details of these deleted tracks so that our heritage is saved forever. Instead of PM'ing, we could have the opportunity to broadcast the details of track locations to all and sundry - details such as commencement points, finish points, distances, topography features, turn off's, junctions, vegetation, steepness, time to walk, camp sites, water availibility, GPS refrences and so on.

There are some amongst our communities who can claim these tracks as part of thier heritage and pass thier information on to the rest of thier community members.

I dont see it any differently, if I openly share such information with members of my community and so keep passing on and saving our heritage.

Perhaps my views are too extreme - what do you think ?

Paul.
Nothofagus gunnii

[flyfisher]

No Paul, I don't think that's too extreme.

They don't really ask the users (public) what they think they just take the "we know best, this is how it's going to be" attitude and if ya don't like it too bad. NOT GOOD ENOUGH, especially when we pay them and they do not give us the full picture.

A classic example of tracks and huts left off maps is the area from Western bluff to Mother Cumming's peak. On the 25k maps, many tracks and a hut or two are missing where they had been on the older 100k maps.

Flyfisher

[flyfisher]

No Paul, I don't think your views are too far off the mark.

The people making these maps are employees of the public and are telling the public that "you can have this incompletely detailed map and pay top dollar for it and some stuff we don't want you to know for our own selfish reasons".

Really if thats what we have to pay for then we should shut their department down and save their salaries.

A good example of tracks, huts, etc left off the 25k maps can be seen in the maps from Mother Cummings peak to Western bluff. The 100k maps (old)show a lot that's not on the new ones. Really poor.

ff

[walkinTas]

The people making these maps are employees of the public and are telling the public that "you can have this incompletely detailed map and pay top dollar for it and some stuff we don't want you to know for our own selfish reasons". ...ff

Here is my take on it ff. People who work for the public service are "Public Servants" yes, but they are also employees answerable to an employer. Some people might be inclined to think that a Public Servant should do what ever Joe Public wants. However, a public servant often has less latitude for exercising discretion than a private sector worker. As a public servant you are required to follow the directives of the department. And because it is the Public Service, and bureaucratic by nature, those directives are generally well defined and often narrowly defined.

So a good employee of any government agency is abiding by the agencies directives. The agency should be setting those directives in harmony with Government policy. Who exactly sets the agenda and why, is often a complex relationship. In the case of tracks (and other information) being remove/left off maps, I would imagine it is a very complex relationship between Ministers and Departments, perhaps even involving competing agendas.

[corvus]

I doubt the Ministers have had much say in Bureaucratic decisions especially regarding omissions from Tas Maps why dont we ask the current Minister and direct him to this forum discussion.
David.OByrne@parliament.tas.gov.au

[Son of a Beach]

Or 'Obi' (or Obiwan) as everyone called him at college.

[flyfisher]

Point taken, Walkin Tas but still hard to cop the decision to not make the maps totally accurate.

A read of Frog Call by Greg French is quite enlightening regarding the bureaucracy's attitude to many things "dark green"
A read of the chapter "Summer of Discontent" may offer some explanation of my attitude as I am totally in agreement with him.

ff

[Liamy77]

LADY LAKE HUT:
(roughly at:)55G453546E 5386123S (WGS 84)
missing off 1:25k and 1:100k.....

also has thread about it at
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4453&start=0&hilit=lady+lake+hut

[Liamy77]

A faulty/ineffective beurocratic system does not excuse poor maps as an end product... especially when information ALREADY gathered is now left out!

[Son of a Beach]

LADY LAKE HUT:
(roughly at:)55G453546E 5386123S (WGS 84)
missing off 1:25k and 1:100k.....

also has thread about it at
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4453&start=0&hilit=lady+lake+hut

What is the date of that map? Lady Lake Hut was burnt down a few decades ago and only rebuild from scratch a few years ago. It may not have actually existed when the map was compiled. Lady Lake Hut certainly didn't exist the first time I did Higgs Track, and I was confused when I first saw pictures of it with references to it's location as to how I could have walked right past it without knowing it was there.

(It's also a little to the south-east of the square on your image - just at the base of the east side of that little hill ).

[Liamy77]

ok thanks Nik... i knew the hut would be a bit off as i got it off Google... The electronic maps i have are Memorymap Topo Tasmania... Geoscience Australia (2006) Data.... This and a couple of others are not shown... and yeah nuts i meant 1:25,000 and 1:100,000... the cheapest way i found is 250 ish - statewide 1:25k, 1:100k, australia 1:250k plus 3d land view, track creation etc... the maps are the best bit by far...

Is this better Nik?

[walkinTas]

nothing to do with faulty or ineffective or not working.... If the bureaucracy is working correctly, then individual map makers won't be making the decisions. The decisions will be made at department level - by agency management, and often even between departments, and should be inline with Government policy. And Yes Corvus, the Minister may not see all the paper work, but he/she is the person ultimately responsible for department decisions.

There are two simple points I am making here. Firstly, public servants don't work for you and they are not employed to do what Joe Public wants. Its a BIG misconception. Secondly, the public servant at the coal face should be following department policy and working in harmony with department directives. Departments are ultimately responsible to Ministers.

[Liamy77]

If a system is witholding info that has previously been released that has potential to impact on life (huts for example) then the system in place that has allowed it is faulty / ineffective IMHO.

[Son of a Beach]

Heheh, in the right direction but not far enough. The hut is around the corner of the hill from the lake and quite some distance from it. You can't see the lake from the hut.

[corvus]

On my 1970 1.100,000 Mersey the hut is showing as as 55GDP538858 Namless hut is showing as 55DGP531802
glad I held on to all of my old Maps.

P.S. these Huts have been re built and are habitable

[Liamy77]

beauty... I think the huts should be listed at least as there is a saftey issue there.... Cheers folks.... few more huts to list yet..... heh heh

[Son of a Beach]

The Kosi Huts Assoc has a great list of Tassie huts. That might be a good reference.

Or Perhaps somebody might like to create our own list in the wiki?

[Nuts]

beauty... I think the huts should be listed at least as there is a safety issue there.... Cheers folks.... few more huts to list yet..... heh heh

I dont really get the 'safety issue'?
Wouldn't a more responsible approach be to get a list of huts (and tracks) together and (at least) ask why they have been left off first?

[Liamy77]

I dont really get the 'safety issue'?

lets say someone in a walkin party does their knee/ ankle etc and the weather turns nasty... be nice to know theres a hut 1 km (or whatever) away... especially if the group is lightly / poorly equiped... just one example...

Wouldn't a more responsible approach be to get a list of huts (and tracks) together and (at least) ask why they have been left off first?

Isn't that why this thread started?? (trick question that... )

[Nuts]

Yer..well... It does seem obvious that having them listed, especially pinpointed on maps and shown on a public forum kinda makes the question 'moot'..

The safety thing, if it was me deciding what was left out, would definitely be considered. It could also be just as much a reason for leaving huts (and tracks) off maps?

I guess the alternative approach, for those who feel strongly enough about the issue, would be to call for private messages. If no solid reason is given for Particular things being left of maps then go for it!

Just my view, cant see the harm with Lady Lake, others obviously cant either. Perhaps (as suggested) it just wasn't there at the time?

[Paul]

Hi all,

We can talk all we like - however, knowing that information is being left off maps isnt "fixed" by talking about it or asking questions. It is time to commence real action, a data set of known deleted information and making it publicaly available so that our heritage is not lost for all time.

The caretakers of our public land have made thier stand, now its time for those concerned about it to take thier stand.

Lets get this rolling.

Paul.

[Paul]

Hi all,

We can talk all we like - however, knowing that information is being left off maps isnt "fixed" by talking about it or asking questions. It is time to commence real action, a data set of known deleted information and making it publicaly available so that our heritage is not lost for all time.

The caretakers of our public land have made thier stand, now its time for those concerned about it to take thier stand.

Lets get this rolling.

Paul.Paul
Nothofagus gunnii


Posts: 17
Joined: Sun 14 Dec, 2008 8:29 pm
Region: Tasmania - Launceston/Tamar area
Private message

[walkinTas]

What you may not be accepting or acknowledging (perhaps) is that tracks may have been left off for a good reason. Are you presuming that either there isn't a reason, or that the reason isn't valid? Or do you believe that possibly it is some sort of conspiracy or ineptitude on the part of Public Servants? We could of-course, just presume we know better than the people charged with the responsibility of managing these areas, or, on the other hand, we could make a real effort to find out what is behind the change of tactic. Has anyone made a phone call or sent an email to try to find out why?

Maybe huts are left off because they are not suitable shelters for people to be using. It would be unsafe for people to make plans presuming there was a hut there because it appeared on a map. I'm not sure I know - are you? Maybe tracks are left off because their location wasn't accurate in the first place and using the inaccurate information was dangerous. Or maybe a decision has been made to discourage use of a track for sound environmental reasons or simple to look for alternatives. I'm not sure - are you?

Anyway, what would be tragic would be if this community of walkers, through ignorance, did something that contributed to the destruction of the areas where we love to walk, or endangered the lives of those who walked there.

Caution: These comments are not aimed at any particular person or post above. I am simply asking that you stop and consider the possibility that there might be some legitimate management decisions being made here, maybe even for good safety reasons, rather than just a conspiracy against the bushwalking community. So play the ball not the person when you respond.

[Liamy77]

Thats kinda from the same place what i was tryin to get at originally:

I will always follow a track if there is one to follow.... I believe this limits our impact on the bush.....

maps no longer show tracks that ARE on older versions, and are still passable...

Please bear in mind that this DOES NOT mean the track is still passable NOW... but if you have checked it lately let us know huh?

I guess its sort of evolved to include Huts... but a maintained hut is different to an emergency shelter which can be differentiated from an unmaintained hut / ruin - still beats trying to make a humpy shelter ....
that said i believe it best to always carry your own shelter, stove, etc...
and use some responsibility with where you choose to go including seeking info on the area from the owner / land carer etc in the planning.

bottom line:
IF YOU HAVE NO RESPECT FOR THE BUSH YOU DONT BELONG OUT IN IT

[Liamy77]

While some might argue that in a democracy ultimately the govt works for joe public, and while "yes minister" was officially a fictional work, neither viewpoint is totally right IMHO... some detail will be lost as it is no longer safe to display (say overgrown track or at risk/damaged environment) Bear in mind i am not talking about marking a unmaintained hut as a "Hut" call it a ruin if you prefer but don't pretend it never existed and lose the history.... even a tumbled down hut can give you some aid or shelter.

[flyfisher]

I will ask then if anyone knows why the Jacksons creek track to Lake Myrtle does not appear on any maps.
The obvious reason for the Lady lake hut is that it wasn't there when the maps were finalised, but it used to be on the old 1inch to the mile.Harberles hut isn't on any maps either to my knowledge in spite of being done up some years back.
On the 25k maps, does anyone know why Western creek track or Sids track are missing. Surely ??????

ff