First Arrow - condensation

[Darryl]

Used the above tent on several trips to Tas now and have been a bit disappointed with condensation. Maybe my expectations were way too high - but it is disappointing that a high end tent like this one has its share of condensation problems just like any old el cheapo no name brand. Seen the gathering glistening unwanted jewels of moisture each time I've used it - on clear cold night, night of steady light rain and showery night with bit of wind.

I wonder would putting up a tarp be worth the effort and extra weight? I guess a bit of condensation I'll have to put up with?

Darryl

[whiskeylover]

I have used my First Arrow quite a bit around Tassie.I have found it generally OK,I find the main reason for condensation isthat I have not opened up the inner to allow the air to circulate ,I find that I need both ends of the Inner tent to be nearly fully open to stop condensation,it always varies greatly due to the weather If it is windy less of the inner needs to be open .Last week up on the plateau near Lake Nameless I found that I had a little condensation . I know that when I fell asleep that the both ends were nearly fully closed,When I woke up hot in the middle of the night I opened them both up ,I could feel the air circulating ,Though this was too late the condensation had started to form. The old W/E site had a good information on leaving the tent open ,if you have not got this info give me a yell and I will send it to you it is extremely informative and I learnt a lot from it .Hope you have better luck in future with you tent .

[whiskeylover]

After searching some files upstairs I have found the old WE printout about the First Arrow and Tent Aerodynamics. I found the same, although summarised info on the Sea to Summit website. It basically gives you a different way of viewing the use of a tent - it's easy to think a tent is for warmth, but in reality it is more of a shelter. The basic principle is keep it as open as possible and let the breeze blow thru to carry away condensation. We have had no trouble with condensation on windy days. The main time we still get some condensation is if there are very limited pitching options, there is a bit too much fog or rain about and the spot is too sheltered. The First Arrow has many options for using the aerodynamics to get the airflow right - helps clear the air quicker too if someone else in your tent is a bit on the pongy side - nothing to do with our gourmet bushwalking habits! Even with snow cover you can dig a low down air trench one end and then upwind open up the centre top to allow air flow.

[tim]

I have either a First or Second Arrow (can't remember which one, the smaller one that is a tight two-man) which was the first batch made under the sea-to-summit name, in the blue siliconised fabric (c.f the yellow stuff used previously by WE - which looks way cooler, I was swpewing I just missed it!).

I have never had any real issues with condensation, but as Whiskey has said it is generally a good idea to leave the inner vents fairly open. I have a ludicrously warm sleeping bag, so this is pretty much essential for me on the vast majority of trips anyway if I want to avoid drowning the down with my own juices...

Either way, Its a pretty top tent.

[Darryl]

Thanks guys

I am heartened - maybe that was the problem my thinking the tent should work with ends fairly well zipped up - just a smigen open at top. It had occurred to me that it might need a breeze path - actually most campsites are well protected from wind - it sorta works counter intuitive to the first instinct to find the most sheltered spot. Whiskeylover, I think I've got the summarised version of that info you spoke of - so please send me the fuller version I would like to have a read.

Much appreciated
Darryl

[corvus]

I have the same problem with my MP Microlite any solutions out there ,yes I don't close the inner tent door and I try to leave the fly partially opened .
Or is this just a small space thing however my MP Stellar tends to do the same thing with two of us in it so perhaps its down to the Newer super dry cloth being used for the Flys .

[whiskeylover]

maybe its the dry cloth for the inners the old ones seem t absorb a little moisture my old Hallmark Snowcave didn't seem to get much moisture on the inside but usually only two of slept in it ,and it didn't seem drafty with the inner open.

[dee_legg]

Hi Darryl, i used a first arrow a few weeks ago and had the same problem. Pretty poor, i thought. It was a particularly cold night but with the bottom zip open i woke up basically in a paddle at the bottom of my sleeping bag. Without the waterproof outer on my bag i reckon i would've had a pretty nasty sleep.

[Son of a Beach]

The following 3 attachments are posted on behalf of whiskeylover (I think?).

[Darryl]

Thanks son of a beach for the notes. Dee_legg I'm reassurred to hear others have had similiar problem though I assume you were talking about the bottom zip on the main door and not the sleeping bag being open but have you tried it with both large and small endsof tent completely unzipped as suggested above?

I can see there might be a bit of finesse in setting up this tent - like under tree canopy but with a good exposure to any breeze. Also I wonder if sleeping with head at small end (as I do) would add to condensation build up, rather than the other way round which I imagine would possibly mean a more immediate and efficient venting of warmed air to the outside.

Thanks to all with suggestions to make - I now have apprecation of how vital it is to keep the air flow going through the tent - and hope to try out some of these ideas in the backyard soon. What about a solar powered superlight fan? will that be the next bit of indispensible gear?

[whiskeylover]

I find that sometimes I have had to have the inner open all the way with no fly mesh so the air can keep moving .There was a hot night in Adelaide over 30 c and when the rain started to really p#@s down water started to come in but it was bouncing of the ground as it hit and comming back into the tent .We zipped up a little and that cured that little problem and we remained dry ,the tent didn't leak at all .My tent is quite a few years old and I have recently put seam sealer on the attachment points for the inner tent (The velcro bits) and have also sprayed the fly with water repellant goo and it is still working really well .Also broke a pole on the southwest track( clumsy person getting in or out of tent fell and grabbed it for support ) used little fix it sleeve for the rest of trip .when I sent it back to W/E I was sent a whole new set of poles for nix ,the ealier poles were maybe faulty .So I have no complaints about customer back up .Hope you and your tent have better luck in the future

[norts]

I dont have any complaints about my 1st Arrow except that I don't use it much, mainly use my Macpac Mircolight. The main reason i went for the 1st was the great vestibules and so many diferent ways to use it. I wish I could carry this tent on all my walks, but at 3.5kg? its too heavy for one man.
I cant complain about their service either. My floor started leaking very badly after about 4 years, the whole floor. Something was wrong with the material, I got a whole new tent.
I dont like the new way they attach the inner, I liked the velcro, was easy to put up and pull down.

Roger

[alliecat]

There are a few things that can be done to reduce condensation, but to be perfectly honest, if it's cold outside, and you have warm moist air inside, you will get condensation.

Things that can help reduce condensation:

Ventilation is the big one. Without adequate ventilation, anything else will have only minor impact. Note that bug netting can impede airflow quite a lot (much more than you'd think). Also, you need to orient your tent with respect to the prevailing wind so as to get best air flow through the tent.

Keep wet stuff out of the body of the tent. If you can, put any wet gear in a well-ventilated vestibule and as far away from the main body of the tent as possible. This helps to keep the water vapour that evaporates from the wet gear from entering the tent.

Sleep with your head near some sort of ventilation port (usually the tent entrance) so as much as possible of your respirated water vapour can escape.

Keep a cloth handy and wipe down any condensation if you wake in the night.

Use a ground sheet. Water can enter through the floor of a tent (especially under the presssure of sleeping bodies) - an extra layer of ground sheet can reduce this.

If you woke with water pooling on the floor, then I really would wonder if that was just condensation or water leaking through the floor of the tent (or from somewhere else). Sometimes small holes can be really difficult to find, especially if they only leak under pressure.

Good luck.

Alliecat

[norts]

I agree Alliecat, my floor was just oozing through.

[alex]

but to be perfectly honest, if it's cold outside, and you have warm moist air inside, you will get condensation.

agreed.
think of breathing on a cold window, same process.
Imagine defrost in your car and the amount of air that blows (ventilation of sorts), to eliminate condensation you would need a [b]lot[b] of ventilation. Small tents with two people and cold outside, you are almost certain to get some condensation, allow for it, whether it's the best tent you can get or a cheapie, mainly it's not the fabric.

[DonQx]

There are a few things that can be done to reduce condensation, but to be perfectly honest, if it's cold outside, and you have warm moist air inside, you will get condensation.

+1!!!

Tent design & material choice is a trade-off between ranges of incompatible factors. Mostly weight & bulk vs. all others, like warmth, space & protection from creepy crawlies.

Learn to live with the strength & weaknesses of your chosen set-up.

I haven't found a 'perfect' tent yet ... if you have, I'd love to hear about it!

a.

[geoffmallo]

I've got an old polyester first arrow that has seen many Tassie trips. I've rarely seen any condensation in it. We vent the inner a bit, though not as much as some seem to from the above posts. 2 people with wet gear stuck in the tent for 2 days and cooking the vestibule and it did well. We were conscious to keep the air moving and the tapered shape helps with that. Compared with the olympus it work a lot better. So my advice persevere and you'll get it right.

Geoff

[SurferShane]

I have the same problem with my MP Microlite any solutions out there ,yes I don't close the inner tent door and I try to leave the fly partially opened .
Or is this just a small space thing however my MP Stellar tends to do the same thing with two of us in it so perhaps its down to the Newer super dry cloth being used for the Flys .

Around 15 yrs ago the exact same situation with my old Macpac micro light, which saw me waking up wet and freezing due to my taffeta covered down bag getting soaked with dripping condensation. The best solution at the time was to purchase one of the very early One Planet Dandelion bags covered in 2 layer Gortex.

I never have got to like the micro light too much, but that sleeping bag is a classic!