Tent design : who was first ?

[Franco]

The other day someone remarked that a certain shelter was a "ripoff" of another , so I sent an E Mail to Bruce B Johnson of Oregon Photos/Gear history fame asking about that particular design.
(the single hoop...)
If you are interested in gear history , take a look here :
http://www.oregonphotos.com/Backpacking ... tion1.html
George replied commenting that when Jack Stephensons started fiddling with a single hoop shelter (not the traditional A frame structure common at the time) he credited the Native Indians for the inspiration.
Here is a pic of the "longhouse" pre-dating the tunnel design and several wig wams pre-dating the geodesic/semi geodesic version "invented" in the 70's ....







Jack started making tents in the late 50's and eventually marketed his 3 pole version , the Model 6 in 1964.
This is a 1961 version



Some may note the similarity with the tunnel design usually credited to another well known manufacturer that started selling theirs in 1981 ...
Franco

[ILUVSWTAS]

Thought you might take that personally.

[Franco]

You can call my dog ugly ( that is not my dog..., cause I don't have one) but when someone states that something I spent 3 years suggesting design features is a ripoff, well yes I do take that personally.
But we can still be friends...
Franco
Look up Jack Stephenson, he called a spade a spade...

[ILUVSWTAS]

Lol, Thanks Franco.
No offense was intended. Indeed the Scarp and the Akto were the 2 tents I had narrowed my search down to when recently chasing a light weight tent.
Probably the only reason I went the Hilleberg was because AT THIS point in time, they have a better reputation for handling conditions like we get here in Tassie. Who knows though, the more popular the tarptents are becoming, this could soon change!! I actually liked the look of "The Moment"

Only reason I said it was a ripoff is because i like to think all my gear is better than all others. It's a stubborn thing, no facts behind it at all!!

No-one else on this forum listens to anything I say, I didnt think that you might.

[Franco]

We listen....
Yesterday I was looking up the history of the "volcano kettle" (like the Kelly Kettle because of a recent development ( a who copied whom thread..) , turns out that a similar design to the 1900 Kelly Kettle and the 1917 Thermette (standard issue in NZ) was the samovar dating back to the 1700 in metal and about 3600 years ago in pottery.
Talk about nothing new under the sun.
Anyway I forked out for one of these :
http://www.theboilerwerks.com/pre-order/
Franco

[Nuts]

when someone states that something I spent 3 years suggesting design features is a ripoff, well yes I do take that personally.
.
Franco

All that and you's came up with something almost as good and amazingly similar to an akto
Which just happens to be one of the most popular single person tents made



Yer... anyhow, interesting photos there Franco. Nothing new under the sun is right eh... I love native designs, i bet the natives would think todays tipis were gifts from the spirits.

[ILUVSWTAS]

We listen....

Thanks!

Anyway I forked out for one of these :
http://www.theboilerwerks.com/pre-order/
Franco

Looks a bit like a Jetboil (which I own and love).....

As Nuts is saying though, I guess if something is foolproof and successful, why not copy some of the features and designs!!

[Franco]

The tunell design is very space efficient but of course you need two or three poles and generally long guylines.
So the next "best" thing was a single hoop but not the same as in the Rainbow.

There are loads of single hoop tents like the Akto, just about every major brand has one , Terra Nova has several.
I played with a few and kept finding things that could be "improved"
Mostly I thought that a convertible design would be nice so one could have a summer shelter and use the same fly with a different inner and extra poles for winter use.
One feature I was particularly keen on was the two doors for versatility (don't like one side of the field, get out of the other...) but also views and ventilation.
Also needed to be less claustrophobic and easier to set up.
Some like it...
Franco
BTW, the Boilerwork "stove" is a kettle (IE to boil water, not cook) that has a built in chimney. That is why they are fast and efficient but of limited use.

[ILUVSWTAS]

BTW, the Boilerwork "stove" is a kettle (IE to boil water, not cook) that has a built in chimney. That is why they are fast and efficient but of limited use.

The jetboil is basically only designed for boiling water, yet I cook in mine all the time! What I REALLY like about it is how compact it can pack down to, also the gas is by FAR the most economical I have seen. One 100g cannister recently lasted me just over 8 days.


I like the look of the tents, as I said earlier I nearly got one, just have never seen one in the field and wanted something I at least knew would handle what I use them for.

Hopefully will be seeing one (A Scarp) in action this weekend, so who knows, maybe I will live to regret the decision....

[kenny12]

out of topic but franco i just convinced one of my friends to get me a boiler for my birthday next year

they look great and would be tons of fun to play with i think

[sthughes]

Lol, nothing wrong with "ripping off" a tent design, just so long as you improve it. Some manufacturers seem to rip off a design but only incorporate the bad features, then wonder why it doesn't sell. I say well done TT, if you did copy the Akto you certainly improved the design a whole heap along the way.

[Franco]

The whole purpose of the thread was to point out that the basic design of the single pole Akto and the multi pole Nallo/Kaitum as well as the geodesic design pre dates all of those "modern" versions, so no the Scarp is not a copy, it is simply the TT way of doing an end supported single pole design.
Franco

[Orion]

Don't tent makers have patents for the unique features of their designs? If another company uses a patented feature the patent owner could come after them. If it isn't patented or the patent has expired then it's open season to use that idea and it isn't a ripoff.

[DanH]

I was of the understanding that it was Stephenson who was first with his tapered tunnel though? do I have that right?... it was ripped off to a large degree by Early Winters in the 70's(?) - from where Macpac ripped their first tapered tunnel (in the early 80's). I remember seeing one but it was waaay too expensive for a struggling RAAFy! ... Wilderness Equipment had/has (it hasn't changed much!) the best design IMHO especially with the entry system and bomber tie out to pole sleeve ideas.

[photohiker]

Apart from the extra height and usable length, one of the big differences between the Akto and the Scarp is that the Scarp has been designed to pitch taut. If you set them up together it immediately becomes obvious that the Scarp has a 3D shape to its fly that pitches without any wrinkles. The Akto on the other hand looks like it has lost weight recently with a large wrinkle running corner to hoop on each corner. No amount of tuning the pitch can take it out.

There's nothing wrong with the Akto, (a lot right in fact) but I think the Scarp has moved the single hoop tent design forward.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Apart from the extra height and usable length, one of the big differences between the Akto and the Scarp is that the Scarp has been designed to pitch taut. If you set them up together it immediately becomes obvious that the Scarp has a 3D shape to its fly that pitches without any wrinkles. The Akto on the other hand looks like it has lost weight recently with a large wrinkle running corner to hoop on each corner. No amount of tuning the pitch can take it out.

There's nothing wrong with the Akto, (a lot right in fact) but I think the Scarp has moved the single hoop tent design forward.

Errrr sure your just not setting it up right?? I've not had that problem, just move the guyropes

[roysta]

yes, and if you go to http://www.warmlite.com you can buy those Stephenson tents.

[photohiker]

Errrr sure your just not setting it up right?? I've not had that problem, just move the guyropes

Nope, I've seen plenty of them, and they all exhibit the same wrinkled feature:




Its a result of the lack of shape in the material - the excess has to go somewhere and that somewhere is in wrinkles.

Compared to the Scarp:



Images courtesy of moontrail and Martin Rye

Granted, you can pitch a Scarp loose and it looks somewhat similar to the Akto, but you can't go the other way.

[ILUVSWTAS]

Interesting!!
Have a look at mine. It's in one of the photos near the bottom....

viewtopic.php?f=42&t=5206&start=0

I can always get it to pitch like this now. Let me know if you want a lesson.

[photohiker]

Interesting!!
Have a look at mine. It's in one of the photos near the bottom....

viewtopic.php?f=42&t=5206&start=0

I can always get it to pitch like this now. Let me know if you want a lesson.

You mean this one:



You can see the wrinkles on the RHS, they are part of the design. If you close the door you would see them on the LHS too (usually worse there for some reason, vestibule side?) You can actually see them inside the vestibule on the side facing away from the camera.

Anyway nice tight pitch there, the wrinkles are built into the design however, you can't pitch them out.

[Franco]

That is why the Scarp has 3 panels on each side.
Franco

[Nuts]

Looks like there are still a few wrinkles in the scarp?
ILSWT is far better pitched than that moontrail one.

I thought this was 'who was first' not some scarp user, defensive, inferior thing?

[photohiker]

Looks like there are still a few wrinkles in the scarp?
ILSWT is far better pitched than that moontrail one.

I thought this was 'who was first' not some scarp user, defensive, inferior thing?

I guess you see what you want to see. The thread is about tent design and its clear that these two both have the same ancestors but detail design differences. They're both great little tents too.

And yes, ILSWT has a nice pitch there. Already mentioned.

[Nuts]

Design 'differences', sometimes 'differences' are quickly labeled 'improvements'.... What stands out (and up...) with the old designs is the huge size (i wonder if they had solo sizes?)... Once the thing is there at your chosen site, assuming its strong enough, i know i would prefer to wander around, cook, stretch out and relax in that longhouse than crawl into either the scarp or akto

[photohiker]

That would work well Nuts, as long as you're the chief with lots of braves in the tribe to carry your tent

[Nuts]

squaw's

[jimmeyer176]

While there may be design comparisons between Tarptent and Hilleberg, I think most people would find the integrity of the Hilleberg far superior to the Tarptent, no disrespect to TT...they make good stuff, but even when you compare them to other ultralight designs (Mountain Laurel Designs comes to mind) they don't seem to be on the same level. I am speaking mainly of the sewing, not the designs, I agree TT have great designs.

[Franco]

The thread was just to point out that sometime a well known design is not necessarily the original.
I bet that if anyone here is interested in tent design and starts to sketch something "new" I or someone else could find an existing or done before match.
That is true just about anything. Had a look at cameras or TVs lately ? (well ever...)
When I had around 100 different cameras on the shop shelf I could tell them apart from a distance ( because I use to buy them...) however even some of my salespeople could not.
So , yes to most customers they all looked the same.
To me most cars look the same. But I know nothing about cars , I don't even drive.
But again in my mind innovation is very different from copying.

BTW, the same factories that make TT also sew stuff for other US manufacturers.....
Franco

[Franco]

In a current thread at Outdoor Magic (discussing the similarities of certain kettles) Chris Townsend
mentioned that before the Akto came out Robert Saunders was selling his Spacesaver tents in the UK .
Here is one :

http://www.robertsaunders.co.uk/pages/frame.html

also mentioned that before the Nallo came about there was a tent called the Ultimate Peapod :



Chris noted that the new bit the Akto came out with was the end support.
Franco