New Thermarest Neoair AllSeason looks promising

[Earthling]

and these (http://gossamergear.com/trekking.html#), which I haven't yet had a chance to use.
Cheers,JB

Those LT4 Poles are a joy to use. So light and yet so strong and they save the knees

[alliecat]

alliecat,
Thanks for that when you say a thin foam layer what exactly do you mean as the "blue closed cell mats " mats I own weigh around the 270g mark .
corvus

The standard old blue foamie is usually 8mm thick (sometimes 10mm). I have found 3mm and 5mm thick mats at various times in various places, but not the usual bushwalking or camping shops. I got a 5mm mat from Kmart years ago but haven't seen them there for ages. They roll up much smaller than the 8mm mat and weigh, well, around 5/8 of the standad mat

I got a 3mm mat by walking into a foam shop in Moonah some years ago and asking for their firmest, lightest, thinnest closed cell foam. They cut me a sheet to the size I wanted and I think it cost me all of $10. I used that as a groundsheet under a cheap 1-person tent that had a pretty flimsy floor, so the foam got trashed eventually but it was certainly good value for money. I'd try looking under "foam" in the yellow pages before I'd try the bushwalkling shops - they are much more likely to have a range of suitable foams to choose from.

Somebody on here also managed to source some 3mm evazoate foam (probably the best R for the weight) from somewhere - it's used in shoe inner soles and footbeds. Ah yes, here's the thread: http://bushwalk.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2871&start=30

Hope that helps.

Cheers,
Alliecat

[Nuts]

alliecat,
Thanks for that when you say a thin foam layer what exactly do you mean as the "blue closed cell mats " mats I own weigh around the 270g mark .
corvus

You do have to be careful uncovered foam can pick up grit and stuff and it can be hard to see.


Happy B'day joya123 (45)

[corvus]

Thanks JB I will check them out
corvus

[photohiker]

The other way we lose heat is through IR radiation. A space blanket will reduce a lot of the radiative losses. But, until you've got the convective and conductive losses under control, the radiative losses are a very small portion of the total heat loss. I can't recall what the R value of a single IR reflective layer is exactly, but it's pretty small (almost certainly less than R0.5 and the figure R0.14 comes to mind but I can't find the source of that right now). Because we can sense IR on our skin though, when we feel the reflected IR, it "feels" warmer even though the actual reduction in heat loss is very small. So there is a bit of psychological benefit to a space blanket, but the actual benefit is small.

The point about reflective foil barriers (and space blankets) is that they work well with an enclosed and controlled airspace. This is why we immediately begin to warm up when enclosed in a space blanket - its the space between our body and the blanket that quickly warms up and holds our body heat in. The object of the emergency space blanket is to drastically reduce losses giving the person a chance retain and build core temps.

This is also the basic design of the Neoair and the allseason sounds like it has improved on that. As you point out, we wouldn't get a rating of 2.5 for the Neoair if it only relied on it's IR barrier - it clearly uses the controlled airspaces inside the mat in conjunction with the IR barriers to deliver a thermal insulation benefit greater than the sum of its parts.

I rate Thermarest for actually using science to give us pads that perform well above their weight when compared to traditional mats.

[mountainhigh]

...source some 3mm evazoate foam...

I'd be happy to assist people wanting Evazote (mates rates for bushwalk.com members). I can skive thickness as required between 3mm and about 30mm. Sheets are traditionally 2000x1000mm but half sheets 2000x500mm are doable too. Contact me through the website or pm. http://metrofoam.com.au

[Greenie]

I wonder if there is a Australian supplier of the Polycryo Ground Cloth, for an $8 product I would be spending $41 on shipping

[Nuts]

Here Greenie, more than you'd ever need: http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Duck-5-Windo ... 5ae148aa07

[Nuts]

As you point out, we wouldn't get a rating of 2.5 for the Neoair if it only relied on it's IR barrier - it clearly uses the controlled airspaces inside the mat in conjunction with the IR barriers to deliver a thermal insulation benefit greater than the sum of its parts.

I rate Thermarest for actually using science to give us pads that perform well above their weight when compared to traditional mats.

Science is good, measurement,control, accurate conclusions (well... to 95% probable anyhow) Fact is though, Thermarest (and other companies) forget the important part, independent analysis. R values, while likely a good measure are not used by at least one company solely as they admit that they arent comparable, they can rate them however, then sit back and hope. Without someone else testing their mats the science here is not 'good', its not even really 'science', it is marketing. Perhaps too, i've become a little cynical (i have spent nights on failed mats (of various brands) after swapping mine) but they did try 'creative marketing' in their first adds as mentioned above (ill find the link if necessary?).

Another point, these are not a beefed up version of the yellow neo, they are now using a thicker polyester outer, i wonder if its laminated...

No reason that they wont perform as claimed but its a stretch to think they wont have an 'improved' model as soon as the sales figures start to bottom out...

If there is no immediate need for a new mat I would take a deep breath and wait. Of course, if moneys not an issue... (even then I really feel a single mat system is not good 'practice' (in winter) and saves little (if any) weight)

(edit; i always cringe that im coming across like The Guru or something with these things. I'm not.. In fact i dont know anyone who learns more by repeated mistakes than me My first few years walking everyone seemed to have better gear and probably cared more about it. I just have a big nose (and) for bs (no offence anyone..). I/we go through a lot of gear and have the luxury of no affiliation. That said I could care as little as anyone what people buy)

[corvus]

Hey Nuts most of us on this forum would had tried around 4 mats Max, I believe you have experienced many more than that and over a lot more nights than us so IMHO you are experienced enough to comment as you see it
corvus

[South_Aussie_Hiker]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kumSl-cbLlY

How to cut and reseal a Neoair original.

For absolute gram counters, this could be for you. I can't afford to go potentially stuffing a very expensive mat, and need the extra warmth of the All-Season, but is interesting none the less.

[photohiker]

As you point out, we wouldn't get a rating of 2.5 for the Neoair if it only relied on it's IR barrier - it clearly uses the controlled airspaces inside the mat in conjunction with the IR barriers to deliver a thermal insulation benefit greater than the sum of its parts.

I rate Thermarest for actually using science to give us pads that perform well above their weight when compared to traditional mats.

Science is good, measurement,control, accurate conclusions (well... to 95% probable anyhow) Fact is though, Thermarest (and other companies) forget the important part, independent analysis. R values, while likely a good measure are not used by at least one company solely as they admit that they arent comparable, they can rate them however, then sit back and hope. Without someone else testing their mats the science here is not 'good', its not even really 'science', it is marketing. Perhaps too, i've become a little cynical (i have spent nights on failed mats (of various brands) after swapping mine) but they did try 'creative marketing' in their first adds as mentioned above (ill find the link if necessary?).

Another point, these are not a beefed up version of the yellow neo, they are now using a thicker polyester outer, i wonder if its laminated...

No reason that they wont perform as claimed but its a stretch to think they wont have an 'improved' model as soon as the sales figures start to bottom out...

If there is no immediate need for a new mat I would take a deep breath and wait. Of course, if moneys not an issue... (even then I really feel a single mat system is not good 'practice' (in winter) and saves little (if any) weight)

(edit; i always cringe that im coming across like The Guru or something with these things. I'm not.. In fact i dont know anyone who learns more by repeated mistakes than me My first few years walking everyone seemed to have better gear and probably cared more about it. I just have a big nose (and) for bs (no offence anyone..). I/we go through a lot of gear and have the luxury of no affiliation. That said I could care as little as anyone what people buy)

Cmon Nuts, you're the Guru!

As far as the science is concerned, Thermarest have given an explanation of both the Neoair and the new improved pad that indicate that they are the product of science, not marketing. I'm sure marketing got to it after that, it is their job after all (shine a beacon on the features and gloss over the deficiencies). Having slept on various pads, and knowing as we both do, many others who have as well, I think its safe to say that the neo is about as warm as expected based on Thermarest's claims. Also no reason to doubt the new pad won't be improved over that as claimed, but I'm sure we will all hear in due course.

Happy for them to trot out new and improved pads as often as they like. If they are significantly improved enough, I'll be happy to shell out US$ prices for one. Still happy with the Neo though, the improvement will have to be major...

[Nuts]

OK then grasshopper, you have it worked out and i agree. I was thinking you would burst into the Thermarest theme song for a mo in your earlier post...

Cmon Nuts, you're the Guru!

Naa, dont have enough weed , however, people Have said i look like a guru: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-fv1ZAn ... re=related

Though i doubt Franco would agree that I am: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0T5LRC1 ... re=related (cringe)

[photohiker]

Naa, dont have enough weed , however, people Have said i look like a guru: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d-fv1ZAn ... re=related

Couldn't watch all of it, but he is right about that iRiver

[Nuts]

He is actually right about a few things (in his addled way) much to the disgust of some of his countrymen
(I dont know about the glock or the footlonger though )

[Earthling]

Camped out in the backyard last night for a tryout of the thermarest allseason. Set the Tarp Tent Contrail up quite high to let as much cold in as possible. Temp got down to -5.5c.
Used a Western Mountaineering Ultra light bag rated to -7c with a silk inner bag.
Woke up in the middle of the night a bit cold, temp was -4c. Part of the body touching the mattress was warm, but the upper part with only the sleeping bag as insulation started to feel the chill (I sleep naked).
I tried resting on my side and my back and whilst on my back gave me the best warmth from the WM Bag I was still a tad cold, yet my body touching the mattress when on side or back was warm…nicely warm.
Put on 150 Icebreaker T-shirt and Training pants, cinched the hood of the bag and was warm all over.
In the early hours of the morn was still nice and warm. Incredibly still warmest though from the mattress side as before.

Noise was a non-issue. Was aware of crackling when I first blew it up, but when sleeping on it I didn’t even think about it.

I’m happy so far with a mattress that got me to -5.5c out and weighs 550grams.

[Nuts]

Good start Sounds like that WM bag isnt what you expected though?

[Earthling]

Good start Sounds like that WM bag isnt what you expected though?

Yes, I thought it would pull those temps ok, considering Im not a cold sleeper...maybe they rate them for clothed sleepers....

[corvus]

Good start Sounds like that WM bag isnt what you expected though?

Yes, I thought it would pull those temps ok, considering Im not a cold sleeper...maybe they rate them for clothed sleepers....

Or perhaps their -7 Rating is flawed as I believe (and could be wrong)that a Silk liner adds at least 1% to bags
corvus

[Nuts]

I haven't used WM bags, they have them tested to the same ratings as Marmot (that we do use) so they should be roughly comparable given down/down weight. i just had a look at the WM site and they dont appear to give much explanation of the ratings? I seem to recall WM use slightly higher rated (by somebody....) loft/fill power down, i doubt this would make a lot of difference.

Ratings given as marketing (both between and within brands) seem to have little to do with actual ratings. If i realise this, they do, I'd give credit to any manufacturer who marketed on their true comfort ratings and made a bigger deal of it being independently rated.

Other things being roughly equal and going on the specs Ultralite: -7c 450 g of fill and comparing the Helium (about the closest looking specs) with -9c and 610 g I think what you have found is probably correct, even the heavier Marmot would be starting to struggle at -5/6. What you do find on the Marmot site, however, is a full explanation of the rating. Even though the heavier Marmot bag is rated -9c that is very much the lower limit, the comfort rating can be vastly different. Ive slept in the Helium with thermals and I would be shivering at -9c. From using their (and other) various rated models and getting a feel for what the ratings mean (to me) I would expect (personally) to be starting to also feel cold in yours at -3/4 silk liner and perhaps thermals also..

The bright side is that you now have an idea of where you 'fit' Earthling. Its either adding clothes (perhaps even down clothes to get to -7c) or getting their next heavier bag perhaps. I would imagine if the bag has a lot of room? and naked could have something to do with it also.

Marmots pinnacle has a heavier shell and another 70 odd grams of down and (even though still marketed as a -9 bag) is noticeably warmer, still probably closer to -7/8 though (from the few times ive actually slept with those temperatures And checked a thermometer). I'd have no reason not to think that WM bags perform in the same way but it is a bit difficult until youv'e actually bought a 'rated' bag (from any of them) and found out where you 'fit'.

(there i go again p/h... i do type fast but might have to take up TV watching or something ... ) (we also need more options in those 'smiles' admin...)

edit, actually the Marmot hydrogen is closer with 370grams of down and has a comfort rating of -1.2c..... -7 (as a single rating) does sound a little 'sus'....

[photohiker]

Ratings given as marketing (both between and within brands) seem to have little to do with actual ratings. If i realise this, they do, I'd give credit to any manufacturer who marketed on their true comfort ratings and made a bigger deal of it being independently rated.

Other things being roughly equal and going on the specs Ultralite: -7c 450 g of fill and comparing the Helium (about the closest looking specs) with -9c and 610 g I think what you have found is probably correct, even the heavier Marmot would be starting to struggle at -5/6.

Yep. See the comparison table in the wiki. Some bags are EN13537 rated, and some are not. Sleeping Bag Selection

WM does look light-on for down for their ratings compared to other EN13537 rated bags. I have their Ultralite overfill, and I've yet to suffer from cold in it. Only been to -5 so far. Mostly, its too *&%$#! hot I sleep in silk but not one of those tangled and annoying liners...

[Nuts]

I havent used a liner for a while now, prefer just thermals. i bought some of that terramar silk but felt kinda 'gay' (i do hope thats ok to say these days? i dont want to offend silk wearers..lol)

[ninjapuppet]

I havent used a liner for a while now, prefer just thermals. i bought some of that terramar silk but felt kinda 'gay' (i do hope thats ok to say these days? i dont want to offend silk wearers..lol)

Thats what i said, but I got flamed by 10 different people for making a comment like that. Had to remove it on request. LOL.

[Nuts]

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin ... 635#425635

Link to similar discussions on BPL

[photohiker]

i bought some of that terramar silk but felt kinda 'gay'

haha. I'll take comfort and warmth over insecurities over sexuality any day.

I did a quick google, and it would appear that while silk gets a mention, spandex/lycra is the go-to fabric of choice.

[Nuts]

haha. I'll take comfort and warmth over insecurities over sexuality any day.

Ha ha, I tried to be more descriptive last night but it just wasnt working. Maybe 'awkward' is a better choice. Anyhow...... yer silk liners were nice but (to me) wool or synthetic is more comfortable in the cold, changed into early so as not to get cold changing for bed. The sleeping bag stays clean either way. I lent a sleeping bag to a mate not thinking to add a liner. It came up a few days in that he sleeps Nakid

PS.. the smile was to lessen the impact, the description was the first thing i thought, wasnt intending to be overly funny or anything....

[Earthling]

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin/backpackinglight/forums/thread_display.html?forum_thread_id=50221&skip_to_post=425635#425635
Link to similar discussions on BPL

Wish someone else had reviewed it by now more than just little 'ol me....Like to see how it handles colder temps...might have to wait till later on in the year for that one Im guessing(Northern winter).

I have their Ultralite overfill, and I've yet to suffer from cold in it. Only been to -5 so far. Mostly, its too *&%$#! hot I sleep in silk but not one of those tangled and annoying liners...

I wonder if 56grams of down would make the difference (mines not overfilled) or more the silk or even perhaps the cold/hot sleeper...sounds like you might be a hot sleeper
I dont get to below 0c tooo often so this will do the job most of the time and then rug up when it does. Will have to purchase another bag sometime though...

[Franco]

Nuts
Thermarest (and other companies) forget the important part, independent analysis. R values, while likely a good measure are not used by at least one company solely as they admit that they arent comparable, they can rate them however, then sit back and hope

As it happens , for example, the Neo Air (same things were said about that one too BEFORE anyone tested it) was tested by BPL to be in fact (when fully inflated) warmer than stated.
The Thermarest figures are for an 80% inflation, that being preferred by many.

No reason that they wont perform as claimed but its a stretch to think they wont have an 'improved' model as soon as the sales figures start to bottom out...

The Neo took 5 years of RD to come to the market.
I am not a subscriber to conspiracy theories or the usual "all manufacturers are just there to make as much money as they can" type views.
Of course occasionally that does happen but usually a "better" product does not come into the market simply because it hasn't being invented or made .
That was true with the photo brands I was close too when in the business as it is now with TT.
Virtually every time I spoke to designers/product managers from brands like Sony/Panasonic/Canon they had something on the pipe line that was an improvement on what I had on the shelf.
At times the product was still two or three years away simply because some parts were not ready, problems had to be solved or even just waiting for a slot in the production line.
However a typical DPReview comment would have been "well they had that sensor two years ago so why...."
On the other hand they were all very aware that if they did not release the new product as soon as possible someone else wold have one similar before them.


These nights, sleeping with the same air temperature, my wife has a layer of blankets (1 down doona, 1 synthetic doona and a wool blanket) that is about 4x thicker than my single synthetic doona.
She would obviously disagree with me about "R ratings" and that applies to most people too.
Again the R rating is just a starting point that allows to compare one with another.

Franco
BTW, I don't take notice of tent reviews done by people that cannot set up one in good weather , nor do I think that guys that recommend a flour and water diet in one clip and then a Subway one in another can really help me to make a good decision.
But if that sort of thing appeals to you, well then let it be your Guru...

[Nuts]

I wont cut and paste your points but get the general gist. The empthasis for the last one should probably have been on the word 'some'. I dont expect that you would have taken an impartial view to the comments by hangemhigh. I only linked his vids for a splash of humour, something sorely missed on BPL and occasionally here... I asked a question some time back about the thinking behind the design of the scarp (adding poles in an attempt to make a rigid structure to a tent that was obviously designed around the principles of tunnel and its ability to flex). If its working in extreme weather that is great but i was just interested was all..All i got was silence so i'll save my fingers this time..

I saw the tests on the neo, again, while they do speak highly of the neo in terms of R values, until all ('reputable') companies supply theirs for testing it lessens the importance a far a i can see?

I would like to agree with you on something, and as i said, no reason not to believe thermarest are a 'reputable' company but then so (most people think) are the others i mentioned. A business wouldnt stay viable for long if they didnt look to continue market dominance. My comments and especially the one you linked (below) were from 'real world' experience and aimed at (Australian bushwalkers) those about to fork out a lot of money (for what is essentially a few $ worth of materials). In this case not theoretical physicists or industry reps...

No reason that they wont perform as claimed but its a stretch to think they wont have an 'improved' model as soon as the sales figures start to bottom out...

hangemhigh is a quirky dude but he does raise the occasional point that makes falling back to his (obviously) more questionable comments as cheap a shot as some ive read on BPL..

Anyhow, wasnt chasing an argument i'm sure you have/and have yet some valid points that people will take on board. I do find your points (outside of those in reaction to mine) interesting.

[Son of a Beach]

Please note that the TT crossing poles discussion has been split off to its own topic at: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=7073