Keeping Warm

[Maxwell Hall]

I'm going to be backpacking through Kangaroo Island in ~ 1 month and Tasmania in ~ 4. I'm going to be on foot, staying at farms, meaning I'm going to be hiking for a few days on end, setting up camp at night.

I tried camping somewhere local to see if I have everything required and to my shock, I was slightly cold at now. My sleeping bag says it can go up to -7 C, but to my surprise this means I can survive up to -7 C in it.

I've got a foam pad, what should I buy to keep warm at night? I won't(unless you guys strongly recommend) have any means of boiling water, so no warm bottle is possible. I've rang Paddy Palin; they told me to purchase either some merino thermal underwear or a linen for my sleeping bag. I'm also going to get cold when hiking I'd imagine; I've got thermal gloves/beanie, coat, jumper, shirts and walk fast/don't really feel cold, so not sure if that'll be enough.

Sorry for being quite ignorant, any opinions would be cherished

[Moondog55]

Closed cell foam pad? Get a better mattress. I have no experience with Exped but they are reputed to be very warm. I use a pad plus a Thermarest; get a cover/bivvysac for the sleeping bag, wear a full layer of clothes inside if the space is there, wear a hat, eat a Mars bar just before going to sleep, and if none of those strategies work go for a down liner or an overbag, of the two I prefer an overbag

http://www.phdesigns.co.uk/product_info ... ucts_id=60

Another strategy is to sleep totally naked with a big plastic bag as a vapour barrier liner

[Dale]

Well the good news is at least you found out about the sleeping bag before you went

If your bag is rated at -7 as extreme meaning this is the temperature before an adult becomes hypothermic, then we can guestimate the comfort limit at 5 - 10 degrees. Although it would be easier if you posted your bag so we know what you have.

Staying warm at night depends on:
- your metabolism
- how much you've eaten / types of food eaten before bed
- level of physical activity before bed
- insulation - sleeping bag / clothes / mat
- shelter

So with a double wall tent, an assumption you don't sleep cold and as Paddy Pallin advised you pile on layers and have a warm pad, you might get close to zero as a comfort rating.

Do you know what temps you will expect at Kangaroo Is ? Depending upon where you are going in Tas I imagine even in Nov you should be prepared for zero - the locals on this forum can advise you though.

Your options are to either replace your bag with something warmer, or layer up with good base layers, down jacket and pants and have a warm pad + double wall shelter. Wearing insulation layers to bed is one way to extend bag warmth without carrying extra gear just for sleeping ie. you wear your insulation layers at night around camp anyway.

[savenger]

definitely get some merino thermals... i wear mine all the time, and sleep in them... they're great because they don't retain moisture, don't smell even after wearing for a few days, and they're pretty darn warm.

a silk liner for your sleeping bag is pretty lightweight and will add a couple of degrees.. it might be a good idea to carry a mylar space blanket just in case you get into a pickle.

I have an exped synmat which is technically a -11 mat, but in reality more comfortable at around 0. I'm a cold sleeper but I find I'm pretty good down to about -2 with my marmot helium ("-9"), silk liner and merino thermals. Comfort aside, I could 'survive' at about -20 with that gear I think.

seems silly to not bring a stove... if you're on a budget then a solid fuel stove or a homemade alcohol burning 'can stove' would be perfect, otherwise an MSR style gas stove is a good investment and won't break the bank. it's only a couple of hundred grams max, and totally worth it. A steel bottle full of boiling water with a jumper wrapped around it in your sleeping bag just before bed works wonders on a cold night. a bowl of oats before bed also helps me keep pretty toasty.

[Maxwell Hall]

I assumed no one replied because I didn't receive any emails, but they were sent to a different email address D: Thanks for the good replies!!

Update: Bought myself some thermal underwear, merinos, and thermal beanie/gloves and a non-thermal scarf. I've been told if I cover my head/neck more adequately I should be much, much warmer. My sleeping bag is quite spacious so can wear a warm jumper/clothes to bed, but am not sure if it will be adequate. I've been recommended to buy a bag lining however, I'm on a very short budget. I Googled Kangaroo Islands coldest temperature and I found a recent news thingo saying it got down to -2 the other night, which was said to be the coldest it's been in 3 years(in Adelaide at least)

I'm leaving quite soon, ~ 26, my plan was to sleep in my tent for a few more nights, find out what the temperature was for those nights to try and gauge whether I'll need to purchase the lining

I'm not going to take a stove as it's really not necessary, I'm going to get warm meals when staying at peoples homes still

Surely the mattress I have would be adequate? I'd imagine anything better than what I have will be quite elaborate indeed, and hence expensive

cover/bivvysac?

My sleeping bag is a Mountain Hardware Thermic Micro, purchased at Paddy Pallin

What foods would be best to eat before bed? I was going to take rice cream/tin fruit/baked beans/dried fruit/almonds; I eat a vegan diet at home, so definitely want to avoid meat but am somewhat lenient with eggs/milk. Should these foods be adequate, or could you recommend something else to take?

mylar space blanket?

I have a wool jumper which I was told was thermal. However, the person who gave it to me tends to exaggerate a lot and am not sure if it actually a thermal; how can I tell? It's pretty warm considering that it's not super thick. If it is thermal should I be wearing something on the outside of it?

[kymboy]

If you plan to be hiking for some days on end and camping out it seems a bit strange not to have a stove of some sort imho. If it's cold then the "luxury" of a warm meal or hot drink shouldn't be underestimated. And if you're not planning to carry all your own drinking water, then you might need to boil water you find along the way to kill any potential nasties.

[tsangpo]

If you plan to be hiking for some days on end and camping out it seems a bit strange not to have a stove of some sort imho. If it's cold then the "luxury" of a warm meal or hot drink shouldn't be underestimated. And if you're not planning to carry all your own drinking water, then you might need to boil water you find along the way to kill any potential nasties.

This. A hot milo or jelly crystals in hot water is a great pick-me-up.

If price is an issue consider making a simple metho stove along these lines: http://jwbasecamp.com/Articles/SuperCat/index.html
If you have a light pot lying about and access to a drill you could potentially get the whole set-up for <$5 and metho is cheap to buy.

[Moondog55]

Wool is almost always :"Thermal": anything that traps air is "Thermal" a good wool jumper is one of my favourite articles of clothing, wool does have a downside in that it absorbs lots of water and can take quite a bit of time to dry out, heft the jumper, the lighter it is the more use it will be, the more loosely knitted the better it will be as sleepwear or a warm layer under your shirt.
Thermic-Micro is the insulation, what model is it???
Heavy wool jumpers are for outer-wear

[Moondog55]

If your sleeping bag is this one

http://www.paddypallin.com.au/equipment ... bag-5.html

Then it simply isn't warm enough. At a quick glance that 1 degreeC rating is its absolute lower limit for a fit adult male on a pad in a windproof shelter.

[Maxwell Hall]

hmmrmmm, cool idea with the supercat, I'll see how much space I have in my backpack(have a pretty big hikers one)

This is the sleeping bag I own: http://www.paddypallin.com.au/equipment ... g-bag.html

[Moondog55]

OK then at minus 7 Celsius a fit adult male will not freeze to death, the comfort rating is about 5C, but remember that rating is determined by a lot of factors; including the afore-mentioned pad/mattress and shelter

[Son of a Beach]

Hi Maxwell. I'm glad you're asking a lot of questions here. It appears that you're less experienced at this sort of thing that some people here, and asking questions is of course the best thing to do, short of walking with somebody who is more experienced.

I just want to point out that the advice and answers to the questions your raising are generally coming from people who are quite experienced and who know what they're talking about. So please take each bit of advice seriously, and don't just discount it because it seems to hard, or too expensive. In many cases if you don't have the right advice/knowledge/experience/gear, you can put yourself at very serious risk.

We have had instances where people have asked advice on this forum about particular walks, and after ignoring that advice things went very badly wrong for them (in at least one case, they needed to be rescued by helicopter).

So if there is any advice here that you think is too difficult or too expensive, or not for you for whatever reason, then please seriously consider whether you should change your plans completely.

Now, having go that off my chest, I hope that you are able to follow through with your plans, and that you do so with all the right gear, the best knowledge (as can be gained in the remaining time), and that you thoroughly enjoy your trip.

In order to give you more suitable advice, could you please let us know which part(s) of Tasmania you're planning to walk in? It sounds like you will be in mostly farming areas, so probably not in the central highlands. Could you be more specific? Tasmania is small, but the climate, landscape and walking conditions vary dramatically according to which part of the island you're in.

[Dale]

The sleeping bag is good news. The T limit rating of -7 is limit of comfort for an adult male to have a comfortable night's sleep. So even if you do sleep cold extra clothes should work ok for you on Kang Is. The foam pad is most likely your weak point for insulation.

[Moondog55]

Dale I think you are wrong on that.

MH are known for exaggerating the temperatures their bags are capable of.
The bag weighs 1400 grams, while not an accredited rating I do believe they are using the lowest rating they can, which is survivability not comfort

[Maxwell Hall]

I really respect what you're saying Son of a Beach(awesome name) but from what I gathered so far, the stove seems to be more of a luxury thing, something I can do without for my first trip at least, really don't want to carry any extra weight, I'm all ears for everything else.

I'm leaving for Kangaroo Island on the 27 of July, and Tasmania will be sometime between November-January

With thermal top/bottoms/beanie/gloves, a scarf, supposed thermal jumper, wool socks, few layers of tops, foam mattress with sleeping bag in tent should be enough to keep me warm? Or would you guys suggest to invest in one of those sleeping bag linings as well? Or perhaps a better mattress?

[Maxwell Hall]

Oh and whilst I'm not sure, I do believe it is measured in survivability not comfort

[Dale]

Dale I think you are wrong on that.

MH are known for exaggerating the temperatures their bags are capable of.
The bag weighs 1400 grams, while not an accredited rating I do believe they are using the lowest rating they can, which is survivability not comfort

I also assumed at first the rating was survivability / extreme but if you look at the MH site it is the lower limit of comfort - however I did misread it and it should be -5 not minus 7

http://www.mountainhardwear.com/on/dema ... d=OU8449_R

Mountain Hardware test their bags using the EN rating system:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/EN_13537

[Moondog55]

Dale I just double checked, because do make mistakes often. but MH do give T-extreme as -5C and T-comfort as +1C, so I stand by my remarks about comfort rating being +5C, mainly due to the skewing effect of humidity and the OPs admission that he is new at this and will be having ( I imagine )some difficulty acclimatising and learning how to sleep in camp

[Dale]

Hi Moondog. The MH website lists two EN ratings: t-limit and t comfort for their sleeping bags. This is listed on the specs tab. The EN rating system has 4 measures, MH use the two middle ratings. This is from the European Outdoor Society:

"• The EN 13537 Upper Limit or Maximum Temperature is the highest temperature at which a ‘standard’ adult male is able to have a comfortable night’s sleep without excess sweating.

• The EN 13537 Comfort rating is based on a ‘standard’ woman having a comfortable night’s sleep.

• The EN 13537 Lower Limit is based on the lowest temperature at which as ‘standard’ adult male is deemed to be able to have a comfortable night’s sleep.

• The EN13537 Extreme rating is a survival only rating for a ‘standard’ adult woman. “In the risk range a strong sensation of cold has to be expected and there is a risk of health damage due to hypothermia.” This is an extreme survival rating only and it is not advisable for consumers to rely on this rating for general use. The best guideline temperatures for purchase decisions are the TComfort and TLimit ratings."

You can download the PDF which explains this in more detail:

http://www.europeanoutdoorgroup.com/inf ... ion-sheets

So by the rating system Max should be OK to the limit rating of -5 (of course there are lots of variables...).

I think you're confusing T Limit with the Extreme rating ? Now this would be easy to do as part of the reason the EN standard was introduced was to stop manufacturers marketing their bags just using the extreme rating which was the default marketing position for some.

Now back to the OP ! I absolutely agree with your advice to be conservative on his first trip so all the tricks that have been mentioned to keep warm are still important. Also the testing for the EN temps uses a mat with a 5.8 r value so this is likely a weak point in Max's system.

[Moondog55]

It's also the weak point in mine, R5.8 is a DM9 isn't it??

[Dale]

Down Mat 9 has an R rating of 8 - one serious pad ! DM7 is 5.9.

I noticed in the thread of the new Neo Air the Xtherm is 430g with an R value of 5.7. That's some serious weight / insulation performance...

[Moondog55]

Maxwell Hall should really look to his ground insulation to maximise the use of the bag then, at a minimum 2 closed Cell pads?

[Dale]

R values are cumulative so more than one pad will be warmer. Here's a BPL discussion:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin ... d_id=23800

Another discussion from BPL's resident scientist Richard Nisley has put together a chart on activities, temps and what insulation you need to stay warm. I don't understand the science behind it or how to use this info practically but I do find it fascinating:

http://www.backpackinglight.com/cgi-bin ... index.html

[Maxwell Hall]

What do you mean by 2 closed cell pads?

So to confirm: I should invest in another pad to take with me, a more quality one, instead of getting some liner for my sleeping bag as Paddy Pallin advocated? If so what kind of pad should I purchase?

[Moondog55]

I don't think you actually told us which pad you have, not all pads are equal.

When my kids were little and we went snow camping I used to use the combination of a short "Ridge Rest" with a Karrimat on top and they never complained about the cold, when I used 2 Karrimats they did.
I have never found any benefit from using a Space blanket under my sleeping bag but some friends report a different outcome.
But I find a greater thermal benefit in increasing the warmth of the pad than increasing the warmth of the sleeping bag.

[Maxwell Hall]

I'm really not sure what type of pad I have, just a standard foam pad bought from Paddy Pallin

[Dale]

Thats a closed cell foam pad. it would be worth your while doubling up the pad either through another ccf pad or if you don't want to spend much cash get a cheapo inflatable. You could try Kathmandu if there's a store near you and you should be able to pick up something cheap (amazingly Kathmandu have a sale on). if you want to invest some cash then you can't go wrong with a Thermarest pad or an Exped down mat.

[Maxwell Hall]

I'll buy what ever's needed to be warm. Tell me what I'll need and I'll go grab it today

[Moondog55]

Maxwell that's why we have so many threads on the subject. really good ground insulation is expensive ( on my budget almost prohibitively so ) and I don't think there is a consensus at the moment on which pad gives the most reliable bang for buck. I'm leaning towards the Exped Down Mat 7 in the extra large version, but debating the Neo-Air pad from Cascade Designs, but you could just go to K-Mart and buy 2 of the $20 pads and throw them away after a the trip

[Maxwell Hall]

So two closed pads should do the job and a sleeping bag lining shouldn't be required?